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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Well!! If you’re going to put it that way… “we don’t need no stink’n badges”
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
Registered: 10-9-2003
Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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Wow-when I brought up my concerns about the bracelets everyone pointed fingers at me saying I was cheap....my how things have changed....
[Edited on 9-25-2009 by Bajaboy]
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elgatoloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4332
Registered: 11-19-2002
Location: Yes
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What if I paddle my kayak and catch and release? :-)
Thanks for investigating and reporting!
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elgatoloco
What if I paddle my kayak and catch and release? :-)
Thanks for investigating and reporting! |
There are no unique changes from current regulations at present for this Biosphere.
No small boat permit is currently required in Mexico. A sportfishing license is required for each person who is on a fishing vessel whether catch and
release or not. Casting from shore does not require a license.
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fishbuck
Banned
Posts: 5318
Registered: 8-31-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
wilderone....where did I say all that???
As I mentioned...as a result of all my questions and comments...this boat permit issue is now under revision...so I figure as long as it's in that
phase....well...I imagine things will remain the same as always.
It seems that because we have the Biosphere Officer living here, we found out about this sooner than other areas.
If you fish with a guide...its' only a 46 peso permit...dont panic everybody. |
I hate it that you are caught in the middle of this Shari.
It certainly isn't the 460 pesos that is the issue. It's the principle for sure. At least for me.
I am fishing from San Diego this weekend with my son. Two tickets are $550. And I fully intend to catch my limit of Yellowfin and probably a dorado
and a yellowtail.
Why would I want to drive all the way to Asuncion and be insulted by this Biosphere fee when I can catch fish without paying it at other places?
I caught 9 Yellowfin and 2 Yellowtail in Ensenada last month. And my son and I caught 15 Yellowtail in San Quintin at the end of July.
Tell me again why Asuncion (the Biosphere) is so special that I need to pay and extra $5 a day just to be there?
There are lots of good places in Baja with no Biophere. And no fee.
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.
A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it. – Albert Einstein
"Life's a Beach... and then you Fly!" Fishbuck
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishbuck
Why would I want to drive all the way to Asuncion and be insulted by this Biosphere fee when I can catch fish without paying it at other places?
There are lots of good places in Baja with no Biophere. And no fee. |
If that's the way you feel about $4 then by all means, fish elsewhere !!!
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Shari-
Don't try and explain all of this, obviously your biosphere reserve is working out kinks ours is still working out kinks and its 13 years old! Most
of the reglas make no sense when using the kind of logic that reasonable people tend to use. Beaurocratas in Mexico are a different breed but
unfortunately we are forced into following their dumba$s rules. Best thing is to find out what is required and try and do your best to explain the
rules and procedures. If you bend over backwards it will backfire on you, just don't waste your time. I speak from experience.
For any visitors that may be affected- If something is impossible to obtain just forget about it and go one with your life, play like you didn't know
and just be polite and non confrontational with any official who may be checking. You can argue till the cows come home and it won't do any good, in
fact it will make your situation worse. Just have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
If you fish with a guide...its' only a 46 peso permit...dont panic everybody. |
originally Loreto's marine park was charging 5 DOLLARs. people fought it due to the cost in dollars then they changed the cost to pesos, 50 pesos and
we agued that it was still too high. Now the cost is supposedly 20 pesos funny thing is that we have to pay 23.30 pesos as service providers and can
only charge 20! makes no sense? welcome to Mexican beaurocracy (I can't spell but don't care).
for those pennyP-nchers they don't validate these "boletos" so even though technically you need a different one each day how the hell can they know
when you bought it? buy some and recycle them what the hell? when they do check they supposedly document the series on the ticket and then you
better not be checked with the same one on another day but chances are you won't be checked. geeze I'm starting to actually make logic of this stuff
I'd better slam an espersso
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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thanks Pam...the voice of experience!
this is how things went....
a fisherman on bloody decks asked a question about permits
I called the Reserve office....
They said yes, sportsfishers (even in kayaks) needs the permit...
I posted the answer(which was news to me)....
war broke out....
I called the Reserve again and asked more questions about exactly who needed the permit, commented on public opinion and whined about how this will
affect tourism in our area.....
They held an emergency meeting with Profepa guys....
They called back at the end of the day and said...this permit is now under revision and we will let you know what the outcome is....
geezo...I'm starting to sound like Kat!!
so amigos....I was so shocked when we were told about the permits we needed...and nobody ever told us earlier about them...I just wanted to inform
everybody in order to avoid any unpleasant encounters in the future.
I hate those kind of surprises...very costly....but perhaps Pam is right...(although as a disclaimer I could never suggest using the permits on
subsequent days)
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
...(although as a disclaimer I could never suggest using the permits on subsequent days) |
I suggested they be recycled while also pointing through systematic holes that have been pointed out and discussed with these types for years to no
avail
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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This is faily new stuff to Baja. When I used to camp on any beach I would just pull in, find a place, make camp. If and when somebody came along to
collect I would pay. After almost 20 years and scores (literally) of eco groups with eager grantees surrounded by volunteer police/protectors at Cabo
Pulmo, they still can't decide about TUFs, Tourist User Fees, if they work, how much, who should sell, who needs em. The problem is: if the amount is
negligeble, nobody is interested in collecting, if it is a lot of pesos, nobody will come to pay and play. At Los Arbolitos the fees paid to have a
very large dumpster delivered (a large container was sorely needed for all that traffic on one little beach) but now there is no big truck to haul it
out and it must be emptied in situ, taken out in several old trucks. No Dirty Job guy in the world wants to unload it so it is a mountain of a thing
now, a smelly, growing monument to progress in conservation.
[Edited on 9-25-2009 by Osprey]
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3512
Registered: 8-27-2003
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I myself indulged in a little "recycling" earlier this month, mostly out of ignorance. We stopped in GN and bought 2 bracelets and fished 2 days;
should have bought 4. On returning home, I went to confession to pay for the sin of fishing 2 days with only one bracelet and the Padre kicked me out
of the booth, sternly warning me to stop wasting his and God's time on minutia.
The local providers, as FFP has pointed out, are in a tough spot. And I expect those providers that were not born in Mexico, are female, married a
natural born Mexican, have become citizens of Mexico themselves, and are more successful in attracting gringo dollars than other providers are even in
a tougher spot. It's not that hard to watch the launch ramp and count customers. Especially when your house overlooks the launch ramp.....
My 2 cents is to advise that you do what ever your local provider suggests, and if they shrug their shoulders, then crack a beer and go fishin'.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Loreto now has a FONMAR presence. FONMAR is the state agency that now collects, and spends, license money. They have a guy drive his little FONMAR
truck down to the marina every day, 6AM, and he sells licenses on the docks. Wow, progress.
I came back one afternoon, fishing on a local panga, and there were a couple of FONMAR inspectors checking incoming boats at the ramp. I don't know
who they were, local or from La Paz, or if they will show up often, on a regular basis, or rarely, and I don't know if they will enforce Park rules.
Looks like there will be some new Marine Park rules coming soon. Let's hope they don't get all goofy on us.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Helping out
Hey Sheri, are you ready for the next jump...
I'm sure everyone will be well behaved.. just look at those eye's 
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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Let's try to keep our eyes on the prize-conservation. This responsibility for conservation resides upon the community and users. That's it. The
biosphere designation confers that yes this is a great place that we should care for and enforce existing laws. It's up to the citizens to watch over
the area and remind ourselves to keep it clean and not abuse the marine populations through destructive practices.
We are aware that the greatest damage to marine life is from destructive commercial fishing practices, many of which are illegal by current Mexican
Law, yet not enforced, partly because of lack of resources and partly due to lack of commitment to enforcement and to the long term goal.
Clearly this is an awkward circumstance however the job at hand is to document problems in particular with commercial fisherman and polluters, inspect
vessels, take photos, notify offenders, talk with fisherman, listen to them and be aware of the extensive damage to the region caused by highly
destructive gill nets and 24 hour reef divers using hukas among other abuses.
Conservation of this biosphere and every other should not be diminished as a discussion about bracelets or jealousies of some new self-appointed
authority who claim that residents are free from compliance and only tourists must comply with contributions and commitments, which is totally false
(and offensive).
The discussion should always be about what can we do to protect the area from severe abuse, we know the answers, we are empowered to identify and
document problems, report fishing vessels who break laws-they shall be identified in weekly advertisements in the local papers and following review,
permits shall be revoked.
While I understand that money is tight and few have resources to pay additional discriminatory fees, that is not the issue, there is no forced fee
authorized, nor is that what this is about and frankly its a bit odd that the forcing tourists to wear a "bracelet" is the only topic of discussion by
locals or visitors where as imminent demise and destruction of the marine populations is the significant issue, the causes are well documented and the
solutions are well at hand if only the citizenry would step up instead of waiting for someone from Mexico city to make it all better, that's not going
to happen. It's up to each one of us and we know what to do. Time is being lost, this is a critical moment in time to come together as community of
people who understand the problem and begin to put into practice methods of conservation.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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We would all be right behind you, Captain Arrogant, if we were all hell bent on changing each little part of Mexico or where every else we fish or
recreate. We are too busy just enjoying what's out there. Our lives are short. If we could all quit our jobs, take all our cash, pack up and follow
you around the world doing what you tell us must be done, we would do it. First, professor, I'd have to do a little in your face jaw jackin with you
about things in general. Like how sure are you we all need your lectures?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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gnukid, You're right!
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Geo_Skip
Nomad
Posts: 154
Registered: 5-15-2009
Location: Alta California and......../
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Osprey, You are the Man. (IMHO) Those who live life and enjoy it while keeping their standards intact and doing as little Damage as possible are
the winners.
Those who Lecture or spend their time crying wolf or judging others, Well...let's just say that they are spending their limited time on Earth just
wacking off.
I don't want to get sucked into a "My environmental/social justice Creds are bigger than yours, or Who did more to save the world" discussions that
waste Oxygen and accomplish nothing!
So, enjoy a few Tecate's with Juan and Shari, eat a few fish, learn from the locals (Damn I feel like a retard trying to make my limited Spanish
work...but I'll keep trying)...and recycle the cans when you are done. Think for yourself and act politically where appropriate. It's not so hard
and it leaves tons of time to enjoy the free pleasures of this life.
Live Long and Happy, Osprey.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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There are many success stories worldwide that show that efforts to reduce over-fishing and enforce regulations equally can work to bring back fishing
stocks in both size and numbers to increase overall commercial production. For example, in Fort Ross Northern California regions are flagged off to
allow abalone to grow to sufficient size over years and a seasonal window is enforced.
In New Zealand spiny lobster has increased size and numbers due to protected areas.
In Magdelena Bay, where fishing is significant to many people's subsistence livilhood, sardine factories are canning smaller sardines in larger numbers per can over time. "A one-pound oval tin produced for human consumption, just two years ago, used to hold 7-9 sardines.
Now, this year the same can holds 14-15 sardines per can."
In the Sea of Cortez large hammerheads and rays have all but disappeared due to destructive over-fishing practices. The time to act is now.
Conservation is not about me vs. you or about putting any one of us against the other. We are all together as a community who depends on the resources
for food and livlihood. It isn't about assigning a bracelet to tourists either. Nor is it about fines or cap and trade or a smart grid.
It's pretty clear that if a few hundred boats go out and drag nets and divers use air compressors 24 hours a day over the same spot everyday, the
small fish will be captured as well as large and no fish will remain.
Geo do you agree about limits to sizes and amounts of of fish? For example, if you saw a pal of yours with huge coolers full of baby dorado females
over his daily limit would you consider suggesting that's not a good idea? Even that would require you to talk to a friend about the fish?
Or, if you knew that 20 whales were caught in gill nets along the Baja Coast in one year would you ever object to so many nets?
Or if you saw shark fisherman using nets to kill hundreds of sharks just for the fins, with nets cutting across the edge of all bays catching all fish would you ever consider this might not be a great plan
for the long haul, in order to sustain the population over the coming years ahead?
Certainly, I am not an expert, not at all, I simply a participant in my community, I like to eat fish and I want my friends who are fisherman to have
work. Though I do believe that we can talk about fishing, over a beer perhaps, listen to fisherman, and considering the practices, consider options
and certainly support enforcing existing laws when possible.
[Edited on 9-26-2009 by gnukid]
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jls
Junior Nomad
Posts: 46
Registered: 4-9-2007
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Well...yeah...this is a no brainer Gnukid. I totally agree and will speak about these things. You better understand that most people here know these
things and are working hard to do the best they can. Now what does that have to do with the practical???
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