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mulegejim
Nomad
Posts: 470
Registered: 9-4-2006
Location: San Clemente, CA/Mulege, BCS
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Having traveled and lived in Mexico a number of years I most likely should be able to speak Spanish better than I do - that said - almost all the
Mexicans I have encountered have been more than happy to put up with my attempt at a combination of Spanish and English. In my opinion, some Americans
believe that folks in other countries should speak English - many people do, however, it is not required. Just remember there were/are a lot of first
generation German, Italian, Polish, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican and you name it, who did not speak English when first arriving in the USA - many of us
are descendents of those folks.
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Ken Cooke
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8964
Registered: 2-9-2004
Location: Riverside, CA
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Mood: Pole Line Road postponed due to injury
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Traveling in Baja, it is difficult to get the locals to speak Spanish to an American. |
 What do they speak, Ken? Chinese? |
Going to the bank in Guerrero Negro, the Tellers spoke English.
The family members working at "The Tamale Lady" spoke Spanish. Get closer to the Gold Coast, and you encounter mostly English-speakers - which is a
good thing, but when you practice Spanish, it doesn't help much.
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Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4275
Registered: 1-27-2004
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Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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Spanish Language Etymology (Probably More Than You want to Know)
Why is Spanish sometimes referred to as Castilian or castellano?
" An answer to that question requires a brief look at how the Spanish language developed to its current form. What we know as Spanish is primarily a
derivative of Latin, which arrived on the Iberian Peninsula (the peninsula that includes Spain and Portugal) around 2,000 years ago. On the peninsula,
Latin adopted some of the vocabulary of indigenous languages, becoming Vulgar Latin. The peninsula's variety of Latin became quite well entrenched,
and with various changes (including the addition of thousands of Arabic words), it survived well into the second millennium.
For reasons more political than linguistic, the dialect of Vulgar Latin that was common in what is now the north-central portion of Spain, which
includes Castile, spread throughout the region. In the 13th century, King Alfonso supported efforts such as the translation of historic documents that
helped the dialect, known as Castilian, become the standard for educated use of the language. He also made that dialect the official language for
government administration.
As later rulers pushed the Moors out of Spain, they continued to use Castilian as the official tongue. Further strengthening Castilian's use as a
language for educated people was Arte de la lengua castellana by Antonio de Nebrija, what might be called the first Spanish-language textbook and one
of the first books to systematically define the grammar of a European language.
Although Castilian became the primary language of the area now known as Spain, its use didn't eliminate the other Latin-based languages in the region.
Galician (which has similarities to Portuguese) and Catalan (one of the major languages of Europe with similarities to Spanish and French) continue to
be used in large numbers today. A non-Latin-based language, Euskara or Basque, is also spoken by a minority.
In a sense, then, these other languages — Galician, Catalan and Euskara — are Spanish languages and even have official status in their regions, so the
term Castilian (and more often its Spanish equivalent, castellano) has sometimes been used to differentiate that language from the other languages of
Spain.
Today, the term "Castilian" is used in other ways too. Sometimes it is used to distinguish the north-central standard of Spanish from regional
variations such as Andalusian (used in southern Spain). Sometimes it is used, not altogether accurately, to distinguish the Spanish of Spain from that
of Latin America. And sometimes it is used simply as a synonym for Spanish, especially when referring to the "pure" Spanish promulgated by the Royal
Spanish Academy (which itself preferred the term castellano in its dictionaries until the 1920s).
In Spain, a person's choice of terms to refer to the language — castellano or español, sometimes can have political implications. In many parts of
Latin America, the Spanish language is known routinely as castellano rather than español."
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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There are two basic issues here.
The first is the social issue and what you find in a great part of Baja or other parts of Mexico is that the foreigners all tend to congregate in
one are and be around people who talk and think like you do. Some of that is natural from both sides of the fence. The Nativos are somewhat
uncomfortable around a group of people who talk and act differently than they are used to and the Norteamericanos are also equally uncomfortable
around a group of people who they do not understand and/or completely trust. I find the Norteamericano area of Mulege, Loreto, and Cabo to be dull
and predictable. I came to Mexico knowing how the Norteamericanos lived and interacted, but what I did not understand was what went on in the Native
communities. I chose to locate in a community where there was a more naturally occuring mixture of Native and nortes where I could interact with both
groups which meant I was not looking to adapt to a new culture, but I was able to keep the identity that I had spent years developing and was able to
expand, little by little, into an unknown group with their own unique ways and manners. In order to do that it was necessary to get beyond
rudimentary spanish in order to effectively communicate more than a beer order or dinner. I don't pretend to have the indepth level of understanding
that Shari or Pam Bolles have but I do well within my community and am more understood and accepted all the time. I think that it has to be important
enough to anyone to go through all the discomfort which have been well documented by previous posters. I get really tired of hearing the lame excuses
of "I am too old, or I don't understand other languages" or whatever, if it is important it will get done, most of the time it just is not that
important.
Now the most difficult part: Language does not become truly functional until one can "think" or interact in that language in non-concrete terms. I
did my Master's thesis on this very function of language and we found that hispanic students in southern Colorado were exposed to two different
languages but did not have the ability to function in terms of abstraction in either one. We named this condition "Dual Language Exposed" which meant
that they were missing the the key functions of communication and language in both languages ( Spanish and English) and this seems to be the very
issue most people experience with learning Spanish. They may be able to abstractly function in English but they do not stick with the Spanish side
long enough to every function there.
So with Sureboughts original question, he learned because he was invested and it was a necessary tool, most are merely exposed and other priorities
take precedence.
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C-Urchin
Nomad
Posts: 234
Registered: 12-17-2008
Location: La Paz
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Learning Spanish
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
I was at the beach in Barriles yesterday with friends and a woman pulled up to go kitesurfing, she asked "where ya'll from?"
"La paz" I answered.
She looked at us cross-eyed, who are mostly blond, and said "where?"
I said "la paz, it's the next big town up the road. Y'all should visit sometime."
She snapped back angrily, "I know where la paz is, I have lived here for 18 years but I don't speak spanish and I am not going to la paz!" - typical
ignorant arrogant North American.
Similarly, with my Mexican friends from various parts of the country, in every pueblo in Baja we visit, when we arrive, the locals always give a blank
look when asked for something by other Mexicans-"donde estan las ballenas? "que?", as in total lack of understanding. My friends from Mexico City can
not order a glass of milk in many of Baja's pueblos. The locals can not understand most other regional speakers. Many people become frustrated as
they speak spanish so why don't other mexican spanish speakers understand?
I try hard to adjust to local dialects having learned in pueblos, loud clubs and in school both here in baja and in the USA-I listen and watch the
speakers mouth and make similar movements and sounds, sometimes I use the marble mouth technique - to be better understood which works wonders.
Regional speakers use systematic differences in language in order to define, differentiate and discriminate social groups which would explain why some
people refuse to learn Spanish or English or if they do they have unique phrasing and pronunciation. Me puches pues, y'all -which means "the thorns
got me", y'all in Salvadorian but in Paceno I am still uncertain what it means but I gather it means, "well, they are bugging me."
I try to listen and repeat back the phrases and nuances using mirroring making similar mouth shape, body position and similar intonation, rhythm -
regardless of whether I understand at first, like teenage dating. Some people speak in a slow stuccoto manner, while others use a sing song method,
some (Cubanos) use 64th and 128th note syllables and others (Rancheros) 1/4 note syllables.
When I do mirroring right, often this results in near shock as family members think since I speak their exact language, they assume I must be a long
lost related family member resulting in a familiar conversation. Only when I ask a particularly unique question, usually of critical importance do
they reply, "que? no entiende?"
I do understand why people get a bit tired of this dialectical game but I also think it is funny, I realize it is possible that each of us have a
narrow window defined of our local dialect for our own affirmation and sense of community and many have little experience otherwise.
For me is it is rewarding and well worth the effort to try to understand what people are saying and make adjustments for their particular nuances.
Most often, after learning to speak spanish better and more flexibly, I have found when I thought someone was laughing at me they were not, they were
being nice. Without the effort to learn spanish you are missing out on lots of "understanding," lots of friends and many terrific jokes. Besides there
are probably only 100 words you need to know to break the language barrier. |
From C-Urchin,
I have never responded to anything so have patience if this is posted wrong...
I was in LA a while ago sitting next to a Bimbo, she was going on and on about "those Mexicans" illegals, bla, bla, bla...we have all heard it. She
actually believed that ALL Mexicans who are in the US have jumped the fence or swam to get here, that they are ALL uneducated, they ALL have 8
children etc...And they don't even bother to learn English!!!
I got irritated, could not keep my mouth zipped and reminded her that we were in "Santa Monica" next to "Los Angeles" (actually "El Pueblo de Nuestra
Senora Reina de los Angeles de la Porciuncula" where there were Spanish and Mexican families established a long time before her illiterate grandfather
got off a ship from Ireland or wherever the heck he was from...
I could tell from the void deep into the eyes that she had no idea. Welcome to LAUSD. Don't get me started...
I speak read and write 4 languages, all learned with great effort at different times in my life. All the pain was worth it. All of it. I would do it
again over and over SO much it is worth it to deeply understand another culture.
So, what is the problem? It is my understanding that to appreciate language and wanting to give it all that is needed to learn properly (forget
dialects, start with the official mainstream/grammatically accepted/neutral as possible/language) one has to have some base knowledge of history and
geography. Curiosity and appreciation of other cultures. NOT just need to communicate just the basics. Just the basics holds you back as it holds back
immigrants in the US.
Same problem, lack of education and hermetic communities where all interaction with others is in the native language.
I think that if you choose to move to another country you owe your new countrymen the respect of having studied their culture and have learned their
official language properly so that you can speak, read and write it at least to high school level. You also owe it to yourself.
It is a wonderful adventure.
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Having lived here around 20 years, married to a mexican and have a mexican daughter has put me in the unique position of acting as a bridge between
the cultures. I did not speak a word of spanish when I arrived but certainly enjoyed the adventure of learning not only a new language, but a new
culture too.
One of the things we do here is teach spanish to visitors through immersion. I have found that courses, tapes, videos etc. aren't really effective for
most people.
Our method works wonders as one learns at their own pace... to suit their needs. Learning a language is a long process but a rewarding one. I have
been able to design a program that eliminates alot of uneccesary stuff and starts you right in on what YOU need to get by day to day...based on your
interests and levels.
I have taught people in thier 70's to speak enough spanish to live happily in this country so age is not an issue...dedication is the key and a
willingness to learn and belief that YOU CAN!!!
Even if you are only on a 2 week vacation...make a friend who can spend some time with you just helping you with some phrases...any advancement is
good...even a couple phrases a day is progress.
I am always amazed with people who have lived here for years and dont speak hardly any spanish...chalk that up to laziness.
Anyway...dont be discouraged...start today...make a new years resolution to learn a bit every day and you'll be knee slapping at the hilarious jokes
made by your neighbours before long...enjoy.
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chuckbolton
Newbie
Posts: 19
Registered: 10-11-2008
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i lived and worked in san quintin for 3 yrs. when i went down there my work partner was mexican and spoke very little english- fortunately his wife
( american) spoke both languages. i finally figured out that my partner's spanish was 50% slang 50% swear words (neither of which was in the
dictionary that i had) with some good spanish thrown in somewhere. i had only 2 customers that spoke english so my learning of spanish was death by
fire- (immersion). it went well and my conversational spanish is good-- it help when i started dating a mexican-- you really learn it then. so if
your desire is to learn a foriegn language get a "bedside dictionary." just kidding for you married folks. i also learned that i could understand
much better the educated mexican over the uneducated one. they spoke less slang.
i think in english we probably speak more slang than we realize . one reason retirees in baja speak little english is because they dont want to and
most waiters and many clerks speak english. just as in the states we make compensation for non- english speakers. tho the form for my work permit was
totally in spanish and i did it with no help and my bad spanish-- if u are half way intelligent you can make it thru--and by the way-- the event all
took plaace when i was in my late 40's. so an old dog can learn new tricks. -- dont make the excuse that im too old--
i was amazed in baja at the number of mexicans who had never been in the snow even tho it can be seen at times from san quintin-- the attitude was
"why? its too far and hard to get there. so many there have a lacadasical attitude also.
people dont vary too much regardless of nationality
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Not having seen snow is most likely NOT because mexicans are lazy...they are mostly poor and cant just take a joy ride to see snow. Most trips are to
visit family...it's a cultural thing and there is not usually enough disposible income for vacations except for family reasons...weddings, funerals,
taking kids to college etc. I'm sure there are lots of things they need to spend what money they have before seeing snow.
learning from young children is great too because they have a more limited vocabulary.
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chuckbolton
Newbie
Posts: 19
Registered: 10-11-2008
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you are correct shari-- i wasnt putting down the populace-- only noting a difference-- i know folks who plan vacations based on where they have
relations to stay with for the same reason-- mexico isnot better or worse than the states-- only different-- by the way-- my wife is mexican-- so i do
understand, i think.
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BajaNuts
Super Nomad
Posts: 1085
Registered: 5-11-2008
Location: eastern WA, the DRY side
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Mood: no worry, no hurry....it's all good!
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here's another angle~
How many big cities...and small cities have "chinatowns"? Or the Italian/Russian/Columbian neighborhood?
Nationalities congregating together is natural. Been happening since the mid-1800's in NorthAm. How many people who live in "XXX-town" never learned
English? Many never learned because they were able to live and function within the few-blocks-square of their native tongue speaking neighborhood and
it worked for them in their limited community.
The topic of this thread is basically why visitor/foreigners don't speak the native language.
I've always felt that when I am visiting another country it is up to me to abide by their rules, languages and customs. And in response to that, I
expect visitors ...and new immigrants...to my country to abide by and learn my country's language, laws and customs.
Gringo's congregating in a gringo bar/community in Baja.........predictable! Just as it is predictable for all other nationalities to seek out and
live near ties to their homelands.
Thinking back to the immigrants who came to the USofA's shores in the last 200 years....how many of them arrived with their pensions in hand and their
401's totally locked and their "big-phat-house-sold"? With a bundle of moolah and the attitude of "I have the $$$, kiss my burro" ?
How many were fleeing any number of desperate situations from where they came? Can we give them a "bye" for not knowing English when they arrive in
America after a desperate flight for freedom? imHo, yes we can give them a pass on the language when they enter the country.
Can we give them a "bye" when after 10 years, they still don't know how to hail a cab? or order a BigMac with anything other then "numbr whon"
?!?!?
I suppose I'm not talking about the Asian Mum who stays in her neighborhood and does all the walking by foot and doesn't have need of the public
trolly...
Now, how many folks head down to Mexico without so much as a por favor and expect everyone in Mexico to know English?
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Why can't Americans learn Spanish?
Flojos!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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