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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
"El Loco"... how long these guys in the lock up??? |
Probably not for long!
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Are those the guys caught dropping rocks from an overpass? |
Yes Howard they are the sorry little scumbags!
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Bajahowodd
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They look pathetic. I have no idea what the extent of their punishment will be, but they will have to live the rest of their lives with the knowledge
and, hopefully guilt that they erased a beautiful child from the face of the earth.
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toneart
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Gulp! Here I go again:
Of course rocks kill. Teens killing a child with rocks is certainly a mismatch. Dropping rocks from an overpass is certainly criminal. They should be
tried and prosecuted, but rightly, they weren't shot down.
My contention regarding rocks vs guns; it is a mismatch. I wasn't there for the border patrol incident and neither were any of you. I just think there
were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. He obviously wasn't carrying a firearm or he would
have tried using it instead of throwing rocks. I believe that killing should be a last resort; not the status quo police mentality, IF this is the
status quo, as you guys state. If this IS the status quo from training, then I am very uncomfortable with you. (This is not what I want from law
enforcement and you guys are scary). Surely the BP incident is being investigated....Isn't it 
I have never had a problem with law enforcement and never will. I don't put myself into that position. In the few times I was stopped for a traffic
law infraction, I was always respectful. I knew they were doing their job even though I wasn't happy about getting a ticket.
When I was a little kid I was lost one time. I was taught to go up to a cop and tell him if I ever had a problem like that, and so I did. He asked me
for my address, which I knew, and he put me on his motorcycle with him and drove me home. I never forgot that. That trust stayed with me all these
years.
I have always respected law enforcement officers. I always felt that they would be there to protect me, if needed. I always thought police were the
good guys vs the bad guys. I never want them to be hurt, and more importantly, killed. I want them to be so well trained that they are discerning,
quicker thinking, smarter and more familiar with their weapons that the bad guys, and to never lose sight of the awesome responsibility they carry
with that weaponry. -To Serve and Protect!
Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true.
And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true.
And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned. |
toneart,
cops like all people have their faults. have you read about LAPD Rampart CRASH division? Ever heard about NYPD and Abner Louima? perhaps most cops
are good, but the few that are bad give them all a bad name. one problem is that cops rally around bad eggs when they put loyalty to their accused
brothers before service to public.
anwho, deal with cops like you deal with all strangers, better to reserve trust until the stranger earns it
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Gulp! Here I go again:
Of course rocks kill. Teens killing a child with rocks is certainly a mismatch. Dropping rocks from an overpass is certainly criminal. They should be
tried and prosecuted, but rightly, they weren't shot down.
My contention regarding rocks vs guns; it is a mismatch. I wasn't there for the border patrol incident and neither were any of you. I just think there
were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. He obviously wasn't carrying a firearm or he would
have tried using it instead of throwing rocks. I believe that killing should be a last resort; not the status quo police mentality, IF this is the
status quo, as you guys state. If this IS the status quo from training, then I am very uncomfortable with you. (This is not what I want from law
enforcement and you guys are scary). Surely the BP incident is being investigated....Isn't it
I have never had a problem with law enforcement and never will. I don't put myself into that position. In the few times I was stopped for a traffic
law infraction, I was always respectful. I knew they were doing their job even though I wasn't happy about getting a ticket.
When I was a little kid I was lost one time. I was taught to go up to a cop and tell him if I ever had a problem like that, and so I did. He asked me
for my address, which I knew, and he put me on his motorcycle with him and drove me home. I never forgot that. That trust stayed with me all these
years.
I have always respected law enforcement officers. I always felt that they would be there to protect me, if needed. I always thought police were the
good guys vs the bad guys. I never want them to be hurt, and more importantly, killed. I want them to be so well trained that they are discerning,
quicker thinking, smarter and more familiar with their weapons that the bad guys, and to never lose sight of the awesome responsibility they carry
with that weaponry. -To Serve and Protect!
Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true.
And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned. |
SOME BRIEF THOUGHTS ON YOUR THOUGHTS
Gulp! Here I go again:
Of course rocks kill. Teens killing a child with rocks is certainly a mismatch. Dropping rocks from an overpass is certainly criminal. They should be
tried and prosecuted, but rightly, they weren't shot down. Thank you for acknowledging that rocks kill!
My contention regarding rocks vs guns; it is a mismatch. The only mismatch is the velocity at which they are traveling!
I wasn't there for the border patrol incident and neither were any of you. True!
I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. Name one that will get
him or her home alive after their shift?
He obviously wasn't carrying a firearm or he would have tried using it instead of throwing rocks.
Bingo, give that man a Kewpie Doll!
I believe that killing should be a last resort; not the status quo police mentality, IF this is the status quo, as you guys state. If this IS the
status quo from training, then I am very uncomfortable with you. (This is not what I want from law enforcement and you guys are scary). Surely the BP
incident is being investigated....Isn't it Deadly Force is always a last resort!
I have never had a problem with law enforcement and never will. I don't put myself into that position. In the few times I was stopped for a traffic
law infraction, I was always respectful. I knew they were doing their job even though I wasn't happy about getting a ticket. The city or
county where you got your ticket thanks you!
When I was a little kid I was lost one time. I was taught to go up to a cop and tell him if I ever had a problem like that, and so I did. He asked me
for my address, which I knew, and he put me on his motorcycle with him and drove me home. I never forgot that. That trust stayed with me all these
years. Ahhhh, cute story. Keep that trust always!
I have always respected law enforcement officers. I always felt that they would be there to protect me, if needed. They are!
I always thought police were the good guys vs the bad guys. They are the good guys!
I never want them to be hurt, and more importantly, killed. All Law Enforcement thanks you!
I want them to be so well trained that they are discerning, quicker thinking, smarter and more familiar with their weapons that the bad guys, and to
never lose sight of the awesome responsibility they carry with that weaponry. -To Serve and Protect! They are well trained but they are not
robots! They will respond with deadly force if their lives are in danger!
Regarding the issue of respect: Am I being naive? My bubble is being burst by your "shoot to kill" first line of defense attitude, IF this is true.
And IF this is true, my respect for you is being greatly diminished. It has taken me to age 72 before my respect has waned. If necessary the
officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life. The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the end of
shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!
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Bajahowodd
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Hey David. Lighten up a bit. Tony is actually one of the good guys around here. 
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Thank you for the good natured cartoon tasering, Ellie. I spared you my cartoon concealed weapon because that wouldn't have been fair! My cartoon
lived through your cartoon taser. Oh, and I didn't drop trow. That wouldn't have been fair to you either.   |
Toneart you're a good natured person and I like you despite our philosophies! 
David |
Thank you, Amigo! |
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Hey David. Lighten up a bit. Tony is actually one of the good guys around here.
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Howard, I know! We already squared that away! Tony has been inducted in my "Elinvesti8's Taser Hall of Fame!"
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]
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Bajahowodd
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Is that a good thing???
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Is that a good thing??? |
Tony is a little worse for wear, but ok!
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Barry A.
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Well said, Invester18.
Tony------I hope that I am not being too simplistic here, but it seems to me that you may be comparing apples with oranges---------what apparently
happened in this subject instance at the border is a possible life-threatening situation, with injuries already incurred. These circumstances are
vastly different than what an officer deals with normally, and the officer MUST recognize the difference, and take the appropriate action, not only to
protect himself, but to protect others, especially those other than the law breaker. This IS the officers primary responsibility---------they don't
have time to make thought-out decisions at that time-------their training enables them to make decisions without thought, almost instantly if
necessary, and that is the best way they save innocent lives including their own, and protect innocents from harm.
It is not a game, and "fairness" is not in the mix---------bottom line is when there is any doubt about the outcome, you take action to make sure you
win, knowing that this is your job and your survival. It does not always work, but experience over many years has showed us that this is the best
course of action---officer safety first, crook second.
I don't know if any of this is important or relavant to you, but it is very important and revelant to LE officers. It helps them to survive in these
rare instances when they have to "act", and act aggressively.
I am sorry if this realization decreases your respect for LE officers-----of course I don't think it should, in fact just the opposite, these guys are
trying to protect the innocent from the law breakers, plain and simple, and they are not paid to get injured or killed.
I don't know how else to say it without being insulting------it is what it is. All the things that you believed officers should and would do for you
still apply, and they normally will happen. Nothing has changed except perhaps your perception, and I don't know what to do about that.
Barry
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Eloquently stated Barry!
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toneart
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"Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvest18)
This doesn't square with this:
"If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life. The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the
end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvest18)
My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation.
"I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him.-Toneart "
Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"-David (Elinvest18)
Charge him, fast! You (the officer) is probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and head.
Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before you
shoot to kill.
Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance.
I still see holes in it to which I am answering here.
David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro!
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ELINVESTIG8R
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
"Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvest18)
This doesn't square with this:
"If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life. The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the
end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvest18)
My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation.
"I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him.-Toneart "
Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"-David (Elinvest18)
Charge him, fast! You (the officer) is probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and head.
Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before you
shoot to kill.
Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance.
I still see holes in it to which I am answering here.
David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro! |
Wait a second Tony, I have to go find and alter a Gif showing me yanking out my hair or those few hairs I have left out from their roots. I'll be
back!
DAVID YANKING OUT HIS HAIR
Originally posted by toneart
"Deadly Force is always a last resort!" - David (Elinvesti8)
This doesn't square with this:
"If necessary the officer will shoot center mass to stop a threat upon his/her life.
The key words are threat upon his/her life”
“The bottom line is that the officer is going home alive at the end of shift. PSS: Rocks Kill People!" -David (Elinvesti8)
My point is, and always has been, the officer is PERCEIVING that it is a threat to his life in that particular situation.
"I just think there were other options than to lethally cut the guy down with bullets with the intention to kill him. - Toneart "
Name one that will get him or her home alive after their shift?"- David (Elinvesti8)
Toneart said: Charge him, fast! You (the officer) are probably bigger and scarier. Throw rocks as you charge. Put your arms up to shield your face and
head. Let the dog continue to charge. It will even if it is injured. Wrestle him down. Beat him up. Cuff him. Or...shoot at a leg. Try anyway, before
you shoot to kill.
If they do what you say here the officer does not get to go home because he is dead!
Thank you for the support, Howard. David is being firm, but so am I. He is doing it with humor and being civil. I am trying to understand his stance.
I still see holes in it to which I am answering here.
David...Ow! Don't taze me, Bro!lol! Oh you wait!
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]
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toneart
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Barry, the "without thinking" is what I have trouble with. If that is what your training is about, I don't like it.
True, "thinking" gets me in trouble sometimes, especially in conversations like this, but then I wouldn't be very good cop material. Having said that,
I am rather self-righteous about it. I am glad I am me and think the way I do. I could never agree to take a job or train to kill without thinking.
Furthermore, I don't see Mexican aliens illegally as criminals. Law breakers, yes, but not criminals. They are not Cartel goons out there walking in
the Arizona desert. They are simple, uneducated people looking for a way to make a living for their families.
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toneart
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"Wait a second Tony, I have to go find and alter a Gif showing me yanking out my hair or those few hairs I have left out from their roots. I'll be
back!"- David
Watch what you are yanking there, Ricardochico.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Barry, the "without thinking" is what I have trouble with. If that is what your training is about, I don't like it.
True, "thinking" gets me in trouble sometimes, especially in conversations like this, but then I wouldn't be very good cop material. Having said that,
I am rather self-righteous about it. I am glad I am me and think the way I do. I could never agree to take a job or train to kill without thinking.
Furthermore, I don't see Mexican aliens illegally as criminals. Law breakers, yes, but not criminals. They are not Cartel goons out there walking in
the Arizona desert. They are simple, uneducated people looking for a way to make a living for their families. |
Arrrrrrrrrrrgggg------Tony, Tony, Tony-------this "law breaker" had ALREADY injured the dog and the officer!!!!! He had graduated from being a "law
breaker" into a criminal, assualting and officer!!
-----and yes, many would not make good LE officers-----that's ok, and I understand completely. But please allow those that do make good officers the
flexibility to DO THEIR JOBS.
I have said way more now than I ever thought would be necessary, and I concede that changing minds is often impossible, no matter the evidence.
Please, please don't ever accept a job as a jurist, tho----Please!!! 
Barry
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toneart
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Your wish is already granted, Barry. I have tried to be seated many times on a jury, but I am too well informed. I have always been rejected. I
read,watch and devour every type of media and literature I can get my hands on. Additionally, I am such an independent thinker (thinker being the
operative word) that no one can pigeonhole me. Truly, I have no peers.
I spend time on the street, talking to homeless, teens and probably illegal aliens and multi racial cultures. I spend time in cafes and bars talking
to ordinary people, artists, neer-do-wells, dilettantes, bankers, real estate agents, lawyers, scions, doctors, celebrities, the independently
wealthy, egocentrics, sociopaths, atheists, agnostics and devoutly religious people.
My biggest outlet is playing jazz, improvising, intuiting and being freer than most of us really are in our repressive culture. I am not a slave to
the corporate world's constraints or it's values. I am a free spirit, not guided by any one religion, but probably influenced by them all. I
challenge authority...have all my life.
I am a past president of our county's Arts Council. I volunteer in places of need for the downtrodden. I try to leave a small, green footprint. I
never want to see any cruelty or any person or animal hurt or killed. I remain convinced that there are alternatives to deliberate violence. I cannot
be placed in any ideology comfortably. The political game is too corrupt, wherever it is played. It is all about money and power. If you think they
serve you, you are being duped. That is a dead end.
I learn more by listening than talking. My opinions originate in my gut, then my mind works on them, and they become well researched. I am not
comfortable leaving any stone unturned. So, the final product is settled upon confidently. I hate being wrong, but if I discover I have been, I will
freely admit it. I also apologize when I am convinced that I am wrong.
Being wrong is not always a fatal error. If I am wrong, it is probably of no consequence to others. But I am hard on myself. If wrong, sometimes it is
a revelation. Sometimes I have been misinformed, or lied to. Sometimes it is a result of a let down of personal vigilance. But rarely is it a result
of a breakdown of experiential structure or cognitive thinking.
So, in this topic, I am right and true to myself and my values. Apparently I am wrong in the cops' eyes. I don't like it. We are indeed different. The
cliche is "that's what makes the world go around". For me, that's OK on a superficial, website level. But now you all know how I feel about the issue
in real life. You could probably care less, but it is important to me.
I have reached the point of saturation. I am bored, and so must you all be. So, I am done with this topic. You may return to your regular states of
being. CLICK
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Got it Toneart. You're through with the Topic.
Edit: To Taser My Bro. Toneart! AGAIN!
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by ELINVESTI8]
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wessongroup
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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compassion with thought
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Your wish is already granted, Barry. I have tried to be seated many times on a jury, but I am too well informed. I have always been rejected. I
read,watch and devour every type of media and literature I can get my hands on. Additionally, I am such an independent thinker (thinker being the
operative word) that no one can pigeonhole me. Truly, I have no peers.
I spend time on the street, talking to homeless, teens and probably illegal aliens and multi racial cultures. I spend time in cafes and bars talking
to ordinary people, artists, neer-do-wells, dilettantes, bankers, real estate agents, lawyers, scions, doctors, celebrities, the independently
wealthy, egocentrics, sociopaths, atheists, agnostics and devoutly religious people.
My biggest outlet is playing jazz, improvising, intuiting and being freer than most of us really are in our repressive culture. I am not a slave to
the corporate world's constraints or it's values. I am a free spirit, not guided by any one religion, but probably influenced by them all. I
challenge authority...have all my life.
I am a past president of our county's Arts Council. I volunteer in places of need for the downtrodden. I try to leave a small, green footprint. I
never want to see any cruelty or any person or animal hurt or killed. I remain convinced that there are alternatives to deliberate violence. I cannot
be placed in any ideology comfortably. The political game is too corrupt, wherever it is played. It is all about money and power. If you think they
serve you, you are being duped. That is a dead end.
I learn more by listening than talking. My opinions originate in my gut, then my mind works on them, and they become well researched. I am not
comfortable leaving any stone unturned. So, the final product is settled upon confidently. I hate being wrong, but if I discover I have been, I will
freely admit it. I also apologize when I am convinced that I am wrong.
Being wrong is not always a fatal error. If I am wrong, it is probably of no consequence to others. But I am hard on myself. If wrong, sometimes it is
a revelation. Sometimes I have been misinformed, or lied to. Sometimes it is a result of a let down of personal vigilance. But rarely is it a result
of a breakdown of experiential structure or cognitive thinking.
So, in this topic, I am right and true to myself and my values. Apparently I am wrong in the cops' eyes. I don't like it. We are indeed different. The
cliche is "that's what makes the world go around". For me, that's OK on a superficial, website level. But now you all know how I feel about the issue
in real life. You could probably care less, but it is important to me.
I have reached the point of saturation. I am bored, and so must you all be. So, I am done with this topic. You may return to your regular states of
being. CLICK |
Toneart, I for one will miss your contributions to any subject, as I see in above post
It's good to get as many to contribute to the discussion as possible.. the more data (pick your own def) on a subject the greater chance of making
significant in roads to change..
I also do not like seeing the change that LE has been forced to make over the past 40-50 years.. they used to be a lot more at ease, as they could
be.. it was much different
Folks back in the 40's and 50's when I grew up, were not in the same mind set as today... people did not call Police "cop's", pig's, spit on them, and
all the rest.. we used to have a crossing guard on Orange Ave. and Del Amo Blvd. in N. Long Beach.. and we used to give him cupcakes and cookies on
the way to school and back.. I was in the third grade. Yeah, I know it's not like that everywhere, but it was like this where I grew up, and I'm
sticking to it....
I see police officers in Mission Viejo Orange County CA, they are young, buffed out, wearing body armor, and they are very well armed.. they appear to
me to be ex military.. as they have the approach and carry themselves as one would if you have been in the military and/or combat... and they are very
serious.. smiles are hard to come by.. it's all business (training to stay alive)
I appreciate their present in the community, but at the same time.. question in my mind is there really a need for a "police force" as "heavy duty" as
these folks..
I think that perhaps there would not be, if it were not for things happening like the "Northridge shoot out" a few years back. Where the "first
responders" walked into a gun fight with way less firepower and protection than then the other guys.. it don't take to many of those to make you
rethink "what the H**L is going on out there"
When I was young, guns were just not used by the "average Joe" most of the time... we fought with our fists, you might pick up a rock (I've got a scar
on the back of my head) from a rock fight from the fourth grade.. but guns were not really used..
I also, would hope there was a way for the folks in LE to not have to have this terrible burden placed on them.. take a look at what it does to them:
divorce, alcoholism, mental problems, and death.. when your under that kind of pressure everyday.. well, I think many might agree that it has a
negative impact on the individual who are in LE.
I had a number of opportunities to go to work in LE, used to work with them through cooperative agreements while working with State of California and
the EPA who I work for... I liked helping people as do most folks in LE, but in the their LE work, the "carnage" and "danger" faced and seen by these
folks daily was not to my liking and I passed a number of times on offers to go to work.
Toneart, I think your contributions will be missed, as all thoughts on how one deals with confrontation is really needed in our world today
I'm not as good a writer as you, so I hope this "thought of mine" gets though.. play the guitar for the same... and I'm not good at that either, but I
like it... as I do your thoughts
Regards
Wiley
(edited as I can't spell or write)
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 1-12-2010 by wessongroup]
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