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shari
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Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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Dennis...I'm way smarter than I used to be now that I speak spanish so there
amigo...true dat!
kidding aside...my brain seems to analyze problems from wider angles now...see it from different sides so I can come up with a better solution...does
that even make sense? It's pretty hard for me to explain.
Oh yeah, the spanglish thing just makes it easier for the respective cultures to understand each other...for example if a mexican is trying to get you
to park in the proper place...you will undertand him much better if he says No Parkiar aqui...i think it was born out of convenience for both
cultures...not such a bad thing.
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Barry A.
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Posts: 10007
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)
Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)
Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)
Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)
Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)
Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)
Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)
Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)
Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)
Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)
Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)
Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)
Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies
Expanded career opportunities
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524 |
Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.
Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual. |
"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God
destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning
languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy
never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the
government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and
I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and
priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?
Iflyfish |
Fish-----------WHERE did you come up with all those quotes??? I have NEVER heard ANYONE say such silly things! I am serious here. I have lots of
Christian folks in my family but none have ever said (or even thought) anything like THAT.
I am suspicious!!!!
Personally, I totally suport multi-lingual studies and always have, but I still think that "English" should be be the official language of the United
States, for practical reasons.
Barry
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DENNIS
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Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
kidding aside...my brain seems to analyze problems from wider angles now...see it from different sides so I can come up with a better solution...does
that even make sense? It's pretty hard for me to explain.
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I don't know, Shari. That may be a benefit of time as well. Our view of it all is constantly changing.
"'Like sands through the hourglass so are the Days of our Lives."
I just made that up because I was caught in a poetic moment. 
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by shari
becoming bilingual has been an interesting journey in discovery for me as one also becomes bi cultural and this affects the WAY you think.
In spanish and french, things are backward...(or maybe it's english that is backward) and I find myself getting tripped up sometimes in english as y
brain has to turn around. Sirena & I...unbenounced to us...speak a combo and mix and match english and spanish words without realizing it. My
brain automatically reaches for the "best" word and out it comes whether that be english or spanish...we dont even notice we switch back and forth. I
find myself thinking Latino in regards to problem solving... meaning thinking outside the box for sure...more creative thinking....kind of looking at
things from a different angle, like backwards which provides a new viewpoint.
I am told (I'm also unaware of this) that my voice raises when I speak spanish and I gesture much much more...am more animated...and I have a lower
voice and more reserved body language when speaking english...weird eh!
I is interesting to watch Izaak absorb 2 languages at once...for example, although he knows both words, he uses doggie for dog and gato for cat...why?
because they sound better? are easier to remember so the brain latches onto that word first?
Sirenita learned to read in english when she was 2 but never studied in english so her writing style is unique...kind of with a latino feeling.
All I know is that it sure is exciting at a later age to feel all those neurons firing up again when learning another language!
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I love this post! I think it demonstrates how facile the mind becomes as it masters a different language and concurrently another culture.
I recently returned from Panama where I read an Ethnographic/Linguistic Study of the native Kuna Indians of Panama/Colombia. In that study they spent
nearly a chapter on a gesture/tip of the head/pursing of the lips/raising of the hands, palm up and the various meanings it communicated. It
communicated an entire gestalt,a world view and a depth of meaning that went way beyond what a single word could communicate. It took paragraphs to
encapsulate what was being communicated including the context of the communication. Try saying F..k in as many different ways as you can, with as many
inflections as you can, in as many variations of volume that you can and you can start to appreciate the complexity that even one four letter word can
communicate. Then add gestures to the mix. Try saying it like the Italians say it, or a Mexican would say it, or as a Fenchman might say it. The study
of other languages/cultures increases the neurological potential for expanded perception and therefore ways to approach problem solving. Our language
often LIMITS the potential of our perceptions. The brain is after all a regulatory organ and expanding it creates many more options about how to
understand our perceptions, other people, social situations, cultural differences etc.
Puts me in mind of Hamlet's shot at super rational Horatio as he interrupts Hamlet's interaction with the ghost of Hamlet's father "And therefore as a
stranger give it (the ghost) welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I had a dear friend who lived in the old Ceylon, now Sri Lanka, and their servants saw ghosts, literally saw ghosts and communicated with them on a
daily basis, my friend, with her limited perception, never saw them.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Benefits of Bilingualism (http://www.tcsd.org/education/components/scrapbook/default.p...)
Higher academic achievement on standardized tests (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Armstrong & Rogers 1997; etc)
Increased ability in English (Marcos, K., 1998; Dumas, L., 1999)
Beneficial to the development of reading abilities (D'Angiulli, et al., 2001; Diaz, 1982)
Increased general intelligence and IQ scores (Samuels & Friffore, 1979; Peal & Lambert, 1962)
Improved ability to hypothesize in science (Kessler & Quinn, 1980)
Higher SAT and ACT scores (Robinson, 1992; Cooper, 1987; Eddy, 1981; Olsen & Brown, 1992; etc.)
Improved performance at the post-secondary levels (Wiley, 1985)
Improved cognitive abilities (Curtain, 1990; Genesee & Cloud, 1998; Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991; Barik & Swain, 1976; etc.)
Enhanced memory skills (Kormi-Nouri, et al. 2003)
Increased problem solving ability (Stephens & Esquivel, 1997)
Improved verbal and spatial abilities (Diaz, 1982)
Increased cultural awareness and cross-cultural competencies
Expanded career opportunities
These benefits and more can be explored at the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages website, specifically:
http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=4524 |
Nice summation of some of the research on the subject, Gull.
Now, I'd like to see someone compile a list of resources that support the benefits of staying monolingual. |
"If God wanted us to be bilingual s/he would have made us bilingual" How's that for an argument? or "Isn't American good enough for you?" or "God
destroyed the Tower of Babble." or "The Constitution and our Bible were written in English and there is nothing else you need to know" Learning
languages like French weakens your moral character" or "if you learn Middle Eastern Languages you are supporting terrorism and Muslimism" or "My daddy
never learned another language, why should I?" or "We should be teaching the three R's and leave the rest to the family" or "What right does the
government have teaching our children heathen languages?" "What, are you trying to act smart or something?" "That research is Left Wing propaganda and
I don't see it in the Bible, so it is just a theory" "That research sounds like the sort of soft headed thinking you find in Berkeley" "The pope and
priests are the only ones who should speak other languages". Did I miss any?
Iflyfish |
Fish-----------WHERE did you come up with all those quotes??? I have NEVER heard ANYONE say such silly things! I am serious here. I have lots of
Christian folks in my family but none have ever said (or even thought) anything like THAT.
I am suspicious!!!!
Personally, I totally suport multi-lingual studies and always have, but I still think that "English" should be be the official language of the United
States, for practical reasons.
Barry |
Ya, I know Barry, I know. My tongue was firmly imbedded in my cheek. I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an
RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3 oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't
have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his
is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main
argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.
Iflyfish
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Cisco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4196
Registered: 12-30-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vgabndo
In my part of the country, out-in-the-open far right wing Christian revolutionary militia groups have made a hook-up with 7 local Sheriffs. One of
their favorite images is of the President peeing on a map of the USA. He's also depicted as the anti-christ.
I don't think that teaching the new scientific paradigm in the schools or recognizing a woman's reproductive rights is any kind of excuse for having
to live in this kind of environment in my America. I don't care how much anyone disagrees with what we the people let happen to our government. Our
government let 1200 new militias take root since OK City. A lot of this is since the GOP let the Assault Weapons Ban lapse under Tom Delay. In my
part of the country is seems the conservatives are really peeved at the Democrats for letting them "elect" G W Bush so he could do all those things
they hate so much!
I'm not convinced that leftist social-engineering in the schools had anything to do with this, and if it did, how could it possibly justify civil
chaos in response?
[Edited on 3-27-2012 by vgabndo] |
The extremist Arizona legislature enacted a law that just recently caused the banning of nearly 100 books from Tucson public schools. The list
includes prominent Latino authors, plus Shakespeare, Thoreau, and James Baldwin. They even banned Zorro!
The real goal was to totally dismantle the Tucson school district's Mexican American Studies program. Mission accomplished. The program is gone. Not a
class survived.
The enabling act, Arizona House Bill 2281, contains some lofty language. It requires that school districts teach students to "value each other as
individuals." They cannot be instructed to "hate other races" or "overthrow the United States government." Promoting "resentment toward a race or
class of people" or "ethnic solidarity" is forbidden. A bit overdone but it has some potential, right?
The law was just a smokescreen to cover ethnically based attacks on Latinos students in Tucson schools. Neither the banned books nor the dismantled
Mexican American Studies program violated any of the provisions listed yet the law banned the books and ended the program.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Books-Banned-in-Arizona--by...
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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By the way my response to the guy who told me he lived in "God's Country" where they didn't have daylight saving was, and unfortunately it was
automatic on my part, and I regret it, was "Lets see, what does that say about us who live in Oregon. We have Day Light Savings in Oregon so I guess I
wouldn't be living in God's Country then eh?!" I nearly invited him to an orgy of Wicken revelry out here on the Left Coast. We do have excellent wine
and cheese.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Fish said. "
I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3
oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I
heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when
daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight
savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.
Iflyfish "
Fish---------He HAD to be joking!!!! Please tell me that he was joking!!!!????? I don't know people like that--------(unless he was joking).
Somebody was pulling your leg.
Barry
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
Member Is Offline
Mood: Optimistic
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If you don't know anything about foreign languages, you know nothing about your own.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Fish said. "
I once had the following exchange with a man in Texas, where I was attending an RV Rally. "What time is it he asks" to which I responded "It's 3
oclock" His response, and I quote literally "Oh, We live in God's Country and don't have daylight savings time" I was walking with a friend when I
heard this and started to slap my thigh and laugh out loud. My friend said "Shhhhh, his is serious!" I was dumbfounded and she told me that when
daylight savings time was initiated in her state it was put to a referendum and the main argument agains it was "If god had wanted us to have daylight
savings time he would have given it to us". I am not making this up.
Iflyfish "
Fish---------He HAD to be joking!!!! Please tell me that he was joking!!!!????? I don't know people like that--------(unless he was joking).
Somebody was pulling your leg.
Barry |
I think he meant it.
For an interesting analysis of the interplay between religious belief and time I offer the following:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/jackson/mill/1R.html
Iflyfish
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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By Associated Press, Published: March 24
NEW YORK — A Florida man who climbs mountains to call attention to Alzheimer’s disease has won a national memory competition held in New York City.
It’s the second year in a row that 27-year-old Nelson Dellis of Miami has won the USA Memory Championship. He also broke a record for memorizing 330
random numbers in five minutes, besting the previous record of 248 numbers in five minutes. He set that record last year.
About 50 people competed in Saturday’s challenge of mental skill.
Among the challenges, competitors had to recall 99 names and faces, a 50-line unpublished poem and 200 random words.
I listened to the NPR interview. I suspect he is bilingual!!!
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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bufeo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 793
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Member Is Offline
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Iflyfish, I apologize if my reply earlier seemed to be a bit too abrupt. I failed to recognize that you were chewing on your tongue.
On the other hand, I can relate to your anecdote about the Daylight Savings Time. I was born a WASP in Savannah, GA, became a WASp by the time I was
14 (give or take a year or two) and, finally, just a WAS, over which I had no control, in my early twenties.
I used to joke that I had to learn English as a second language owing to my place of birth and my early education, but I must give credit to early
school years in west Texas when Spanish was required in the third grade (1944). That, alone, left a lasting impression on me about the benefits of
being multi-lingual.
On another note, I'm involved with assisting veterans find jobs (and skills?) after separation from active duty. I'm continually amazed when young men
and women sit down for an interview, and they have the bare essentials of English, their birth language and that of their grandparents too.
Allen R
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EnsenadaDr
Banned
Posts: 5027
Registered: 9-12-2011
Location: Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Move on. It is just a chapter in the past, but don't close the book- just turn the page
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Owner's manual...
Dennis you should know about bilingualism...talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.... | Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
the owners manual for the human mind is 2 simple lines: "use it or lose it" |
Where did you hear that one? Bingo Night at the Del Webb clubhouse?
If we believe every little caveat we got from granny, you should be blind by now. |
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vgabndo
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3461
Registered: 12-8-2003
Location: Mt. Shasta, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Checking-off my bucket list.
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Allen: I was immediately reminded of the 1968 Ron Cobb cartoon. and son-of-a-gun I could still put my hand on it!
The mole has CIA on his hat.
I'm reminded that I had done my entire enlistment in the Marines before I was legally allowed to vote on where I might be sent to die.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bufeo
Iflyfish, I apologize if my reply earlier seemed to be a bit too abrupt. I failed to recognize that you were chewing on your tongue.
On the other hand, I can relate to your anecdote about the Daylight Savings Time. I was born a WASP in Savannah, GA, became a WASp by the time I was
14 (give or take a year or two) and, finally, just a WAS, over which I had no control, in my early twenties.
I used to joke that I had to learn English as a second language owing to my place of birth and my early education, but I must give credit to early
school years in west Texas when Spanish was required in the third grade (1944). That, alone, left a lasting impression on me about the benefits of
being multi-lingual.
On another note, I'm involved with assisting veterans find jobs (and skills?) after separation from active duty. I'm continually amazed when young men
and women sit down for an interview, and they have the bare essentials of English, their birth language and that of their grandparents too.
Allen R |
No apology necessary! It is very difficult to communicate sarcasm or humor for that matter using this medium.
My family spoke only German in North Dakota until the rise of the N-zis in Germany and they then stopped speaking it at all, leaving my poor father
mute for an entire year. I only learned a few words, like hurry up stupid etc. and I am sorry about that. I admire those who are bilingual, trilingual
etc. My life is so much richer having learned the bastardized Spanish that I now speak, enough to get beer and in trouble with my humor. Like Shari I
sometimes GROCK the Mexican culture and perspective and I charish those moments.
First picking fruit with Braceros in California let me really experience that there are different ways to live and see the world and Latin in Prep
School helped me to develop some logic and structural thinking that I did not have. The exposure to the Mexican workers, their sense of joy, pleasure
in life and their ability to play have been great models for me in how to enjoy life and on my better days not take myself so seriously. I am glad
they first taught me how to swear "hey kid, go say this to that guy" etc. That also introduced me to the joy of learning Spanish.
I admire the work that you are doing with our Vets, hard to reintegrate in a time of high unemployment especially with poor language skills, poor
education and the trauma of war etc.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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vgabndo
Great poster!! 'bout says it all.
Iflyfish
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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lencho...it's pitch...I go higher in spanish...i wonder if it is because many mexicanos have higher voices for some reason...diet? sugar? so I mimick
the pitch? and I also gesture way more in spanish...kinda schizophrenic like??? it kind of is like having 2 personalities.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I speak louder when speaking Spanish also. I have been told this many times. In fact I have heard Mexicans complain that Gringos are loud and have
seen novice Spanish speakers talk louder also. I also gesture way more speaking Spanish.
Shari, you have way more than 2! and for this we are all grateful!
Iflyfish
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Never said anything like that, Steve. My arguement is and has been that being multilingual wont raise cognative abilities as some here want to think
it will, and if it will, there's probably no way to test it.
Of course it is advantageous for communication. Who would argue that, but if a person is able to read and comprehend an item in two languages,
assuming an accurate interpretation is being offered, he's no better off for that ability. To say that he would be better informed or more
introspective would be to say the two items read don't say the same thing. After all, interpretation by the reader has been removed from the
equation.
They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to
understanding that flow only in the blood?
.........
"Einstein lived for many years in the United States, and spoke both German and English, but had trouble with spelling in English."
-------
What happened here? |
I agree with your argument that reading the same thing in two different languages doesn't make that person better or more informed. But being able to
read things written in one language but not in the other DOES make that person better-informed than the monolingual person who only has access to
information published in his/her native language. Something I've come across on more than one ocassion are translations that weren't accurate. One
that comes to mind was a translated source that talked about the snow level experienced at San Javier Mission here in southern Baja. I knew that
couldn't be the case so I looked it up in the original, where there was no talk about snowfall, but rather, of frost levels.
Can't say that I've read the source you mention, but my opinion would be that what is being described above is more of a "cultural thing" rather than
a "language thing." A common language does not make a common culture. There are inherent differences among people from the different Spanish-speaking
nations south of our border. We might apply that thought to cultural differences between us and England.
By the way--spelling, in my opinion, has little to do with intelligence or multilingualism. I'm certain that there's a "spelling gene" that some of us
have, and others don't. For the record, I spell poorly in two languages. In Einstein's case, since he didn't begin living in the US until he was in
his 50s, I'd guess that his brain was a bit set in its way to totally absorb the correct spelling of English. But that would just be a guess on my
part.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3151
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
They [flag waving Mexicans] like to say, "The Labrynth of Solitude" by Paz defies interpretation. Do you believe that? Are there clues to
understanding that flow only in the blood?
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Dennis, I just came across something in a book written by historian Ralph Roeder concerning English and French cultural differences and how it
affected their foreign policy decisions:
"English initiative was not, and could not be, neutral, since national interests were settled by national characteristics. In England, where the
national character was predominantly male, the Mexican question was settled with virile simplicity; but across the Channel it was complicated by an
infusion of feminine influence, and in that phase of its development women and women's motives and women's men played an important part in fostering
the brood of the nightmare."
These lines were written in reference to how each nation (England and France) dealt with President Juarez's refusal to pay Mexico's foreign creditors
money owed from previous administrations (Mexico simply didn't have any money to pay and still be able to survive as a government).
It just seemed to fit the spirit of the conversation.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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