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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Man's pollution doesn't come close to competing with earth's own 'pollution' (volcanoes, gas vents, lightning caused fires)... and when solar (sun
spots, flares) activity increases, how are you going to change that? |
Well David, first we understand the problem. The earth's 'pollution' as you put it is has been going on for a few billion years. This natural
pollution has always been absorbed through natural cycles. In a blink of an eye we've added real pollution that our planet has not been able to
absorb. That's why CO2 levels have been rising.
The natural cycle adds and removes CO2 to keep a balance; humans add extra CO2 without removing any. Does that make sense to you? |
CO2 is not a pollutant, CO2 is a good thing, without it ALL PLANTS would DIE. Plants make OXYGEN which us animals need to LIVE.
Absorbing pollution? That was the point of the thread, along with my question...
The point is the ICE PACK is getting BIGGER, not disappearing the way the alarmist have said it would.
So, it would seem to anyone who uses observational science that the earth IS absorbing or processing man's pollution just fine... if man ever polluted
enough to change the climate, which really is quite hard to believe if you ever get a concept of the size of the earth compared to man.
Why do you believe things are worse? We (man) burned so much coal and oil and filled the sky with clouds of soot in the 1800's and early 1900's. There
are many times more of us now, and things are so much cleaner. This is especially true in the United States where we do so much more to control
pollution, yet some think we haven't been punished enough?
Polluted rivers of the 1960's are flowing clean... we fix what we mess up. Time to lighten up on the United States as being some evil monster... We
use a lot of natural resources, but then we produce enough food to feed the world and give our children up to fight dictators and terrorists for
humanity.
In the end... what was good news that I shared (bigger ice pack) is not good news to the alarmist because it means they are wrong or that they will
lose power and funding... The taxed money can be better spent by families who earn the money. 
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chuckie
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David has some good points, when I was a kid, the Hudson river was a mess with effluent from paper mills and chemical plants. Now its a fishery. San
Francisco bay is much cleaner, I dont know about the delta region. Streams in the logging areas are not as choked with mud as 20years ago. It aint all
bad....
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckie
David has some good points, when I was a kid, the Hudson river was a mess with effluent from paper mills and chemical plants. Now its a fishery. San
Francisco bay is much cleaner, I dont know about the delta region. Streams in the logging areas are not as choked with mud as 20years ago. It aint all
bad.... |
Any progress we have made in north America has been more than offset by conditions in Asia, China,
India, and Indonesia are pumping pollutants into the air at an unprecedented rate. Given the geo-political obstacles, there is very little to nothing
that we can do to make any meaningful reduction in greenhouse gas production, I'm afraid we're just going to have to live (or not) with the
consequences, whatever they may ultimately be. Remember, the whole of human existence is just a blip in the geologic history of the planet, and the
majority of species that have existed here are now extinct, we can alter our environment for a while, but he Earth will survive this the same way it
always has, by mutation, extinction, and evolution.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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David K
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With all this bad stuff man is doing (at least you are blaming other countries and not just America)... the ICE PACK is still getting bigger.
So, either what Americans have done has made a difference or (more likely), what nature has done corrects the changes that occur.
Nature is just so much more powerful than man, it is quite silly to think man can change climate, one way or the other... We make it dirty, but then
we see that is bad, and we clean it up... what we can't clean, nature does.
The news media made it sound like the Gulf of Mexico would be a dead sea for decades after the oil spill... not so... just a couple years after,
people are playing on the beaches and shrimp is being fished from the water.
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LaTijereta
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by DaliDali
From the cheap seats..... |
As dependent as we are on fossil fuels, I seriously doubt if it is reversible.
Nature will take care of it eventually, as the planet becomes less hospitable, the population will decline until we achieve a balance again.
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As ALWAYS.. "Mother Nature bats last"...
Democracy is like two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin (1759)
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadogs
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
That statement starting with "In the blink of an eye-----" is so wrong and / or unsubstantiated and illogical on so many levels I don't know where to
begin-----so I won't. 
(I would be wasting my breath)
Barry |
But David's quote makes sense to you? |
Dogs----------YES, David's quote makes sense to me.
But I am mostly aligned with Mono's thinking---------and also realize that our existance on Earth as we know it is an incredibly fragile thing, not
from within but from a catastrophic event from outside-------that IS the apparent history of the Universe, like it or not (and I don't like it, but it
is what it is).
Barry
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Ateo
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I love that song. I remember being a kid thinking I was gonna burn in hell for listening to it.
As for global warming, I ask all of you this question:
If you are wrong, and say in 20 years there's is indisputable evidence that you were wrong, will you admit it?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by woody with a view
| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckie
I knew that... |
somehow, i doubt it....
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I think Chuckles knows everything....: |
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
With all this bad stuff man is doing (at least you are blaming other countries and not just America)... the ICE PACK is still getting bigger.
So, either what Americans have done has made a difference or (more likely), what nature has done corrects the changes that occur.
Nature is just so much more powerful than man, it is quite silly to think man can change climate, one way or the other... We make it dirty, but then
we see that is bad, and we clean it up... what we can't clean, nature does.
The news media made it sound like the Gulf of Mexico would be a dead sea for decades after the oil spill... not so... just a couple years after,
people are playing on the beaches and shrimp is being fished from the water. |
David, just because we are not
smart enough to figure out what the consequences of pouring trillions of tons of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere will ultimately be, doesn't
mean that there will be no consequences. Just like the Gulf Coast tourism council would like everybody to believe that everything is hunky dory there,
but from what I've been reading, they have been experiencing unprecedented mortality of sea turtles, dolphins, and other species of marine life. Just
because you don't see tar balls on the beach doesn't mean it has all just disappeared. It will possibly be generations before we know what the full
effect of our actions are. We can measure the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, we know for certain that it is much higher than it was during the
pre-industrial age, we may not know for sure what that means, but it would be incredibly naive to think that it won't have any effect on the climate.
All I'm saying is that it is counter productive to worry about it because it's too late to change the outcome. All the carbon credit, carbon tax,
carbon sequestration, etc. crap they have come up with is either unrealistic, ineffective, a scam for someone to make money, or all three.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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David K
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What are you suggesting we do? Stop living... give more money to Al Gore... what?
We are doing the best possible to reduce pollution... even things that are good, like CO2... what all animal exhale and all plants inhale...
What is the crisis/ panic agenda's purpose... I think everyone is aware and is trying better... Man is not an alien here, he is a natural part of this
planet, afterall.
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
With all this bad stuff man is doing (at least you are blaming other countries and not just America)... the ICE PACK is still getting bigger.
So, either what Americans have done has made a difference or (more likely), what nature has done corrects the changes that occur.
Nature is just so much more powerful than man, it is quite silly to think man can change climate, one way or the other... We make it dirty, but then
we see that is bad, and we clean it up... what we can't clean, nature does.
The news media made it sound like the Gulf of Mexico would be a dead sea for decades after the oil spill... not so... just a couple years after,
people are playing on the beaches and shrimp is being fished from the water. |
My only comment would be to be careful of using only one year of data. One of the conservative arguments against climate change is that we are only
using one hundred years of data!
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MitchMan
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I think that we can all agree that continued unmitigated global warming is not a good thing. The big picture is quite simple and reflects basic
universally accepted laws of physics and chemistry.
Since the industrialization of world production and the corresponding use/combustion/burning of earth/room temperature fossil fuel chemicals, heat
that otherwise would not have been created was, in fact, created. Any argument there?
Combustion of fossil fuels is a basic chemical reaction that creates heat that previously did not exist.
The logical questions are “where did/does this additionally created heat go?” And “what are the current and future global effects of this
additionally created heat” and finally, “has there actually been enough additionally created heat together with future created additional heat to
render any future detrimental global effects?”
Keep in mind the original question: “where did/does this additionally created heat go?” To ignore this question or to fail to answer it in any
comprehensive assessment of global warming makes that assessment irrelevant and off-point.
With regard to the propriety of our government to deal with the issue, that depends on “we the people”. “Us/we” are the government. To view the
government as an entity separate from “we the people” and then to demonize it makes no sense in the big picture perspective. We get the government
“we the people” deserve because “we the people” vote for its principal managers.
Also, if there is no significant role for the government to play in this matter, then who/what does the role belong to? Other governments or
societies outside the USA? Big business? Religious groups or other charity or non-profit groups? If so, where will they get the authority and
wherewithal to implement effective measures?
| Quote: | David K
...what nature has done corrects the changes that occur.
... what we can't clean, nature does. |
Are you sure about that, David? Unless there is quality documented support that the earth is as clean as it was, say in the year 1400, how can you
make that claim?
Just looking at the USA, are our rivers, lakes, aquifers, and tangent oceans as clean as they were even 200 years ago? Are our lands as clean,
healthy, plentiful and foliated as they were even 200 years ago?
Side point: Are the sport fishing catch of Dorado in Loreto or La Paz as large and plentiful as even twenty years ago? Is there the same level of
mercury in tuna as there were in the past?
BTW, the surface area size of the arctic ice cap is not reflective of the actual volume of the arctic ice cap. The volume of the cap is the principal
long term indicator of global warming, not the surface area alone. While the seasonal surface area of the arctic cap is in September 2013 larger than
predicted, the reduction of the volume of the cap has been and is now still on a very downward trend.
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monoloco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What are you suggesting we do? Stop living... give more money to Al Gore... what?
We are doing the best possible to reduce pollution... even things that are good, like CO2... what all animal exhale and all plants inhale...
What is the crisis/ panic agenda's purpose... I think everyone is aware and is trying better... Man is not an alien here, he is a natural part of this
planet, afterall. |
I guess you didn't read the last part of my post where I said we shouldn't worry about it
because there's little we can do, and that all these greenhouse gas mitigation schemes are scams. No we are not aliens here, we are animals, and we
are temporarily out of balance with our environment, and like other species that become out of balance, we will eventually have our numbers reduced by
natural processes like increased mortality from pollutants, disease, predation (war), inability to produce enough food, etc. until we again achieve a
natural balance. You can't fight mother nature.
[Edited on 9-14-2013 by monoloco]
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Barry A.
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I will just slip this in, and then sit on the sidelines for a while------
MitchMan said in part: "Just looking at the USA, are our rivers, lakes, aquifers, and tangent oceans as clean as they were even 200 years ago? Are
our lands as clean, healthy, plentiful and foliated as they were even 200 years ago? "
One of my hobbies is collecting and comparing historical photos with today-photos, mostly in the west. It appears to me that almost all photos taken
in the far past reveal much less vegatation, especially trees, in the past with what todays photos show. This is true even on wildlands-------this
has always caused me to wonder about claims that "foliation" has been seriously impacted by man.
Barry
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DaliDali
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Scams are rampant
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What are you suggesting we do? Stop living... give more money to Al Gore... what?
We are doing the best possible to reduce pollution... even things that are good, like CO2... what all animal exhale and all plants inhale...
What is the crisis/ panic agenda's purpose... I think everyone is aware and is trying better... Man is not an alien here, he is a natural part of this
planet, afterall.
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we shouldn't worry about it because there's little we can do, and that all these greenhouse gas mitigation
schemes are scams. |
I think you're on to something valid here Mono.
I was just reading in the San Diego UT paper commentary section the other day, a scheme afoot to impose a "fee" at the wellhead, port of entry or mine
for carbon fuels. A "disposal fee"
The "fee", as the article goes on to mention, is to drive up the cost of these carbon fuels to accelerate the use of green alternatives.
What caught my eye was that these "fees" would be "returned" to the consumer to help mitigate the added cost of carbon fuels.
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DaliDali
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Remaining positive
| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
With regard to the propriety of our government to deal with the issue, that depends on “we the people”. “Us/we” are the government. To view the
government as an entity separate from “we the people” and then to demonize it makes no sense in the big picture perspective. We get the government
“we the people” deserve because “we the people” vote for its principal managers.
| Quote: |
It would seem that things have morphed somewhat from "we the people" to "we the special interests"
From alternative energy advocates to San Francisco bay marsh mice affectationados.
And unfortunate or not, it's all about the money and the "we" seems to have taken a back seat.
However, the "we" just got a jolt of energy from the recent recall election in Colorado.....maybe there is a glimmer of hope on the horizon.
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Ateo
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Jesus is coming back in a few years so who cares about global warming? I'm trolling big time.
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chuckie
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Yeah buddy...
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DaliDali
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dragging a troll
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ateo
Jesus is coming back in a few years so who cares about global warming? I'm trolling big time. |
I HATE trolling....put me down in the cast and retrieve column.
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woody with a view
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHmTqoLjlXo
Give it a listen. It just may shatter your illusions.......
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Mexitron
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Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
I will just slip this in, and then sit on the sidelines for a while------
MitchMan said in part: "Just looking at the USA, are our rivers, lakes, aquifers, and tangent oceans as clean as they were even 200 years ago? Are
our lands as clean, healthy, plentiful and foliated as they were even 200 years ago? "
One of my hobbies is collecting and comparing historical photos with today-photos, mostly in the west. It appears to me that almost all photos taken
in the far past reveal much less vegatation, especially trees, in the past with what todays photos show. This is true even on wildlands-------this
has always caused me to wonder about claims that "foliation" has been seriously impacted by man.
Barry |
Very true, at least in the eastern US---the small family farms which cleared huge swaths of the east in the early days have been largely abandoned and
forest has regrown.
I remember seeing pics in college of ranchers in SLO County dynamiting huge mature Oaks to allow more sun for grass for their cattle...they finally
stopped when one of my profs did a study and found the nutrient value of the grasses under the Oaks superior to open range grass.
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