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SFandH
Elite Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ateo
Thanks SF&H. Interesting.
Wonder what the US energy market will look like in a few years, say if Mexico stops it's imports and successfully meets it's own needs from Mexican
sources? |
I'm bullish on the US economy largely because of the current energy situation. Oil and natural gas production are on the rise because of new
extraction technologies and conservation measures are increasing. Also alternative energy sources are becoming more prevalent.
I've read that Mexico has large oil and gas reserves but PEMEX lacks the ability to get at all but the easiest to extract. Hence, the Mexican
government is bringing in foreign companies that have the technology.
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DianaT
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It appears that overall the construction industry in California is moving forward. Housing starts for 2013 were up 40% over 2012.
http://www.cbia.org/go/newsroom/press-releases/statee28099s-...
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BajaOkie
Junior Nomad
Posts: 68
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Just to add another number to this debate.
Bajaboy stated Home Depot stock had increased 224% since 2009. I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and
closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an approximate increase of 589%.
KC
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willardguy
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hmmmm... sounds like somebody needs to get off the internet and start running sprinkler pipe!
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Bajaboy
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Location: Bahia Asuncion, BCS, Mexico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Just to add another number to this debate.
Bajaboy stated Home Depot stock had increased 224% since 2009. I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and
closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an approximate increase of 589%.
KC |
Thanks for more supporting evidence...BIG Business has been doing great! I wonder how many of those companies passed long any of that market value to
their employees in the form of lower insurance costs, higher wages, or increased retirement contributions
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BajaOkie
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Not to be drug into this big business vs big government argument. The numbers show that Home Depot is not keeping up with the market average. That
is all.
KC
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Cisco
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Registered: 12-30-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Just to add another number to this debate.
Bajaboy stated Home Depot stock had increased 224% since 2009. I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and
closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an approximate increase of 589%.
KC |
Thanks for more supporting evidence...BIG Business has been doing great! I wonder how many of those companies passed long any of that market value to
their employees in the form of lower insurance costs, higher wages, or increased retirement contributions |
What's an "employee"?
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LancairDriver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Just to add another number to this debate.
Bajaboy stated Home Depot stock had increased 224% since 2009. I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and
closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an approximate increase of 589%.
KC |
Thanks for more supporting evidence...BIG Business has been doing great! I wonder how many of those companies passed long any of that market value to
their employees in the form of lower insurance costs, higher wages, or increased retirement contributions |
That would depend on the proportion of their investment in the company in the form of a stock dividend, or how highly management valued their effort.
Unless they show a high turnover it is a good indication the employees are happy.
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chuckie
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How many of the experts making statements about how companies should be run own companies?
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msteve1014
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Just to add another number to this debate.
Bajaboy stated Home Depot stock had increased 224% since 2009. I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and
closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an approximate increase of 589%.
KC |
I think you have the decimal point in the wrong place.
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bacquito
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It seems that the new method of extracting oil from shale and sand extraction could be revolucionary and reduce our dependency on foreign oil-I hope
so because I was working for a company in New England area in the '70s and remember the embargo and the pain and insecurity it caused.
However, if pet. products become real cheap what happens to companies such as Shell, Chevron and all the employees? Surely we will continue to need
pet. products but they will be more likely produced in our "backyard" and we will not need so many workers.
bacquito
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David K
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"...but they will be more likely produced in our "backyard" and we will not need so many workers."
??? I am missing the logic here.
If WE produce our own oil supplies instead of importing, it would mean MORE workers here in a growing local industry. Have you heard about North
Dakota?
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micah202
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
It appears that overall the construction industry in California is moving forward. Housing starts for 2013 were up 40% over 2012.
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...whaaa,,,they built -4- houses!?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
I just did a quick check and on Dec. 31, 2009 the Dow jones closed at 10428.05 and closed on Dec. 31, 2013 at 16576.66. I believe that is an
approximate increase of 589%. |
People believe all sorts of things,...
I happen to believe the basic arithmetic skills of Americans are abysmal.
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Bajaboy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4375
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Not to be drug into this big business vs big government argument. The numbers show that Home Depot is not keeping up with the market average. That
is all.
KC |
market is up 58.9% based on the numbers you provided.....
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bacquito
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 3-6-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"...but they will be more likely produced in our "backyard" and we will not need so many workers."
??? I am missing the logic here.
If WE produce our own oil supplies instead of importing, it would mean MORE workers here in a growing local industry. Have you heard about North
Dakota? |
Yes, I am familiar with N. Dakota, "fracking" and Canadian oil sand The feeling is that there is an immense amount of oil available in N. Dakota and
Canada to the extent that perhaps we no longer need to rely on Saudia Arabia or other foreign countries for pet. products-good for us!
But the result could be very cheap fuel. My Dad was a Tuna Fisherman and in his early fishing experience diesal was considered a misc. expense; also I
remember when I was young gas was about $ .20/gal.
Today an oil worker can make a lot of money because the price for pet. products is high, but if it becomes a "misc. expense" will the demand for high
paying jobs remain?
bacquito
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7213
Registered: 8-5-2011
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bacquito
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
"...but they will be more likely produced in our "backyard" and we will not need so many workers."
??? I am missing the logic here.
If WE produce our own oil supplies instead of importing, it would mean MORE workers here in a growing local industry. Have you heard about North
Dakota? |
Yes, I am familiar with N. Dakota, "fracking" and Canadian oil sand The feeling is that there is an immense amount of oil available in N. Dakota and
Canada to the extent that perhaps we no longer need to rely on Saudia Arabia or other foreign countries for pet. products-good for us!
But the result could be very cheap fuel. My Dad was a Tuna Fisherman and in his early fishing experience diesal was considered a misc. expense; also I
remember when I was young gas was about $ .20/gal.
Today an oil worker can make a lot of money because the price for pet. products is high, but if it becomes a "misc. expense" will the demand for high
paying jobs remain? |
If your thinking that a large supply will bring down prices, you're forgetting that the oil industry is a global industry controlled by cartels with
much collusion between the producers. They'll keep the prices as high as the market will bear. I've read that one of the reasons energy prices are
removed from one of the inflation indices is because the prices have nothing to do with the free market and the particular index is used to measure
the health of the free market.
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MitchMan
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Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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Another thing to know about prices is that the cost of a good/commodity/service is not the determining factor of the price, especially when you have a
cartel and/or big business with relatively few competitors.
The only time prices get low enough to be close to cost to produce is if there is adequate competition to produce the good or if there are cost
effective alternatives/substitutes available that provide competition.
When you have a price controlling cartel, they can arbitrarily set the price high and set it at a level that optimizes profits for them, all things
considered.
From one perspective, if America produces at least as much oil as it consumes, one could say that America is energy independent of the foreign
production finally, but, that doesn't mean that oil prices will go down (since the price of oil is set by cartels and global pricing), so, what relief
is there to the American consumer from high prices of fuel? Probably none.
The best that we could hope for in that circumstance is that American production would reduce the market for foreign produced petroleum, thereby
reducing the cartel's influence on the market itself, creating the effect of more competition and thereby have a downward pressure on global pricing.
But, then again, what is to stop American producers from engaging in the same kind of behavior practiced by the cartel and manipulate production and
price setting to achieve the same optimal pricing as the cartels to maximize their (American producers) profits? During the past decades, American
oil producers have been making windfall profits by enjoying the benefits to them of high global oil prices rising well beyond the cost increase to
produce. Keep in mind that price setting by businesses is not a humanitarian endeavor, but an endeavor ultimately set by self interest. THAT is
market based capitalism, and, markets are quite often not perfect enough to successfully reduce prices close to cost to produce yet high enough to
provide enough profit to warrant staying in business which would be ideal...but in market based systems, markets are rarely if ever ideal. Economics
101.
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bacquito
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 3-6-2007
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Mood: jubilado
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MitchMan
Another thing to know about prices is that the cost of a good/commodity/service is not the determining factor of the price, especially when you have a
cartel and/or big business with relatively few competitors.
The only time prices get low enough to be close to cost to produce is if there is adequate competition to produce the good or if there are cost
effective alternatives/substitutes available that provide competition.
When you have a price controlling cartel, they can arbitrarily set the price high and set it at a level that optimizes profits for them, all things
considered.
From one perspective, if America produces at least as much oil as it consumes, one could say that America is energy independent of the foreign
production finally, but, that doesn't mean that oil prices will go down (since the price of oil is set by cartels and global pricing), so, what relief
is there to the American consumer from high prices of fuel? Probably none.
The best that we could hope for in that circumstance is that American production would reduce the market for foreign produced petroleum, thereby
reducing the cartel's influence on the market itself, creating the effect of more competition and thereby have a downward pressure on global pricing.
But, then again, what is to stop American producers from engaging in the same kind of behavior practiced by the cartel and manipulate production and
price setting to achieve the same optimal pricing as the cartels to maximize their (American producers) profits? During the past decades, American
oil producers have been making windfall profits by enjoying the benefits to them of high global oil prices rising well beyond the cost increase to
produce. Keep in mind that price setting by businesses is not a humanitarian endeavor, but an endeavor ultimately set by self interest. THAT is
market based capitalism, and, markets are quite often not perfect enough to successfully reduce prices close to cost to produce yet high enough to
provide enough profit to warrant staying in business which would be ideal...but in market based systems, markets are rarely if ever ideal. Economics
101. |
Good point but when I was an Agric. inspector it was very obvious that when there was an excess of supply of a particular commodity the price of the
commodity fell.
This is true with many agricultural products throughout the world-coffee, cotton, rice and many other agricultural products.
Perhaps your right with pet. but what I have read there could be an excessive amount of pet. products available with this new system of pet.
extraction in the USA and Canada. We are not the Middle East and it is my experience that when there is an excessive supply of a commodity in the USA
the price of that commodity will fall. I hope for lower gas prices as I am sure you also have this hope.
bacquito
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MitchMan
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Good point, baquito. Interesting thing about world wide petroleum production is that the amount of monthly production/sales of barrels of oil follows
worldwide consumption almost exactly. The marginal mismatch from month to month gives rise to short term over/under supply, but in the long run, the
petroleum producers have a pretty good 'longer-than-short-run' handle on deliberate production.
I just hope that technology will soon achieve cost effective energy alternatives to petroleum together with increase in our social will to conserve
energy. That will be so good for the world and our future in so many ways.
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