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capt. mike
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Location: Bat Cave
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Mood: Sling time!
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hey Diana T.
you said a dozen plus posts ago you were through with this thread...gotcha!!! hahahahahaha.
maybe stick some posted notes on your forehead and look in the mirror every now and then, remind you of your to do and not to do lists. 
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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oldlady
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Care to elaborate? |
You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!
Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and
priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word )
happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to
enable the operation of the new beliefs.
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MrBillM
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Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Breaking the Paradigm
Is probably best left to the Gnu Who with his professorial compulsion to re-direct a straight-forward approach to a specific problem into a
philosophical dissertation on myriad societal ills contributing to a complicated situation which must be studied and addressed before resolution can
be hoped to have any effect while we descend further into the morass.
The PROBLEM is a lot simpler than that.
DECREASE (to whatever extent POSSIBLE) the Migration.
DECREASE (to whatever extent POSSIBLE) those already here by appropriate LEGAL means, including SEVERE Employer sanctions.
IF there then needs to be a Guest-Worker Program to fill specific needs, pass the appropriate legislation and provide for appropriate regulation of
same.
And, at the same time to satisfy those like the Gnu and Mexipop, we can explore, discuss and address the deeper societal questions.
Or Not.
BTW, kico asks IF the Arizona law is the same as Federal Law "WHY" is the AZ law necessary ?
Having a little more respect for his intellect than the question would indicate, it's clear he's merely reciting a Lefty Talking point since the
discussion from the very beginning pointed out that the PROBLEM was that Individual agencies and officers within Arizona were interpreting and
enforcing their own versions of existing law. The PURPOSE of the AZ law is to MANDATE that they follow the U.S. law with penalty for not doing so.
Enforce the Law.
No Amnesty. No Quarter.
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Diane said, "But on the other hand, I still believe that many are looking for simple solutions---the simple answers to complicated problems, and far
too often the simple solutions ignore the human aspect of the problem. "
No solution is perfect-----there are ALWAYS casualties--------the "complications" that folks conjure up (and some are real) are the reason that this
particular problem has NOT been solved in decades---------
Lets SOLVE the problem, once and for all, and THEN address and try to correct the anticipated "complications".
What the Fed. legislature is doing now (nothing) is getting us nowhere, and in fact will eventually/already has drag us all down into the
morass-------
That's it------that is all there is---------finis--------closer-------lets get on with it!!!!!!!! 
Barry
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Alan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by capt. mike
This was written by a Mexican who is now a naturalized US Citizen, and I think it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue.
Here is the quote:
"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland, or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else
was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would
properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat
would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed.
Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had (tens of) millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove
the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors.
Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating,
and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price!
In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove
those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do
not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he
has sworn to do.
My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate
crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are
in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit,
and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation.
Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of
showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning
those illegal activities."
Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona.
This makes perfect sense to me. What do you think?
Since Obama has never shown his ticket, I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs. |
You forgot to mention that the stadium "managers" also require me to buy hot dogs and souvenirs for the gatecrashers
In Memory of E-57
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldlady
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Care to elaborate? |
You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!
Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and
priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word )
happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to
enable the operation of the new beliefs. |
I believe that change you speak of historically has occured slowly and with popular support in many cases. Today the change is occuring by mandate of
only a few with little popular support. This is what is causing the angst for so many.jmho
Ken
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oldlady
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Good point. It would be easier to garner large scale popular support if the vision were articulated with enough specificity and confidence that the
benefits would be viewed as worth the effort/sacrifices to make the transformation.
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldlady
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Care to elaborate? |
You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!
Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and
priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word )
happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to
enable the operation of the new beliefs. |
OK, but changing "America is being lost" to "America is being transformed" completely changes the meaning of the statement that I referenced and hear
so often - that America is being lost. I reallly think that there a lot of people that are proponents of this law that think something fundamental is
being lost and this law will prevent it. I'd like to know what they think is being lost. Perhaps my interpretation of lost to mean missing, gone in an
undesirable manner is too strict.
Hyperbole, fear mongering, perhaps?
[Edited on 5-18-2010 by k-rico]
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oldlady
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When a government doesn't protect its citizens, either because it cannot, or chooses not, and such lack of protection reaches a "tipping point", it
is on a path towards a "failed state". In that context, lost is not completely inappropriate. The ability for a state to control it's borders and
defend and protects it's citizens is generally accepted as being fundamental to maintaining sovereignty.
MrBillM's previous post is one of several in the thread that reiterates the solution. As long as we have a government that won't deal with those
points, we have a divisive mess.
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k-rico
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Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldlady
When a government doesn't protect its citizens, either because it cannot, or chooses not, and such lack of protection reaches a "tipping point", it
is on a path towards a "failed state". In that context, lost is not completely inappropriate. The ability for a state to control it's borders and
defend and protects it's citizens is generally accepted as being fundamental to maintaining sovereignty.
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"failed state" you do have a flair for the dramatic.
Living in TJ and crossing the border frequently I have seen a tremendous increase in the border fencing and border agents patrolling the area. All of
the numerous lanes at SY have high tech gear installed to detect people hidden in cars.
The feds have been working hard to enforce the border in this region. Perhaps AZ has now become the entry point of choice because the CA corridor is
much more difficult. And AZ is no walk in the park, it's the Sonoran desert.
There are welfare agencies here in Tijuana to help the continually climbing numbers of Mexicans who get deported and dumped into TJ. It's a diffcult
situation, especially for those that have been in the states for years and don't know anybody in TJ.
The government is increasing the enforcement of the border and deporting more illegals.
The California border is tightening up and all the fed jails to house deportees while they are processed are full.
So I think the idea that the government is unresponsive is inaccurate.
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9274
Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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History may very well view current times with an ironic chuckle. It has been reported that since the beginning of the recession, somewhere around 2
million illegals have left the US, and gone back home. There are several sources of anecdotal evidence that supports the idea that twice that many
illegals remain here only because border security has been enhanced so much that they fear not being able to return when job demand increases. That
said, I've provided a link to the Marketwatch site where they expect that by 2018, the US will have a worker shortage of somewhere between 3.3 and 4
million. The Marketwatch numbers compare conservatively to a report publish by the Graziadio School of Business at Pepperdine, who estimates the
worker shortage at as high as 8 million by 2018. The difference in the estimates amounting to Marketwatch assuming more seniors will continue to work
longer.
What this tells me is ironically, there would probably be millions fewer illegals in the US today had we not beefed-up border security. If there were
millions fewer, the current debate would probably not reached the level to which it has. And, there would be some breathing room to establish an
orderly process to provide for the entry of needed workers when the time comes.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/worker-shortage-coming-as-p...
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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Krico, There is massive local and global financial crisis in play, with massive illegal immigration as one tool of the deflationary game HELLO? Your
pollyanna reply is cute but fails the test of reality. There is no oversight to stop the financial fall nor manage legal immigration.
It's cute that you and some Nomads are out of the loop, brain-washed and in denial, with your cutesy blame each other tit for tat, but that helps the
national and world crisis very little.
The immigration problem is one arm of the crisis playing out among many and there is no end in sight. Massive illegal immigration is a serious problem
with no very little real data available to understand the severity. Estimates can only begin to define the severity of the problem and those estimates
state that illegal immigration exceeds 30,000,000 and of that group, they account for the largest percentage of crime, murder, gang violence and cause
massive burden to the tax payer in the area of enforcement. The corporations, banks and government are the fuel to this fire and the immigrants are
the pawns in a game which has rapidly destroyed a country which was once, a long time ago, an example of productivity and opportunity. Now that is
long gone and what is left is a brain washed public, splintered by divisive memes, that play upon their weakness and irrational fears.
Until the people can find a way to take back their power with some action, any action we will be at the will of the financial fraud game and we will
continue to lose our wealth, our industry, our jobs and our rights.
It's already a lost game and there is little clarity among this group or any other to gather some resolve to combat this.
This discussion about Arizona's mild response to reaffirm one aspect of the rule of law is a minor response, yet you can see it's a tool of division
as well and a trap that catches our energy and causes more confusion and distraction. The elites laugh at the game and at you for falling over
yourselves to attack each other instead of direct action. The solutions are simple as Bill and others suggest certainly. Get out of the corporate
financial game, get back to basics and do not buy and play into the corporate tools that fuel your demise. Eat healthy natural foods, grow your own
garden, make your bread and forgo consumer crap that fuels your demise whoever you may be.
Time to get serious, yes the US is done. We have lost ourselves to corruption in our government and banking system. Few people are wiling to admit
that each day is worse even while countries around us fall to our orchestrated bankruptcy.
We have more than 20% unemployment, the jobs left are service industry positions with low pay, we have massive debt both as a nation and individually,
well exceeding our GNP, we wage multiple wars with no goals except murder, pollution and attrition, our government is in complete chaos, bankrupt and
running scams across the board as are our banking system the federal reserve which is still printing money deflating the value of your labor with NO
OVERSIGHT.
Driveling crybaby arrogant replies are nothing more than distraction from the chaos either for your own false sense of self survival or if you are the
least bit serious, there is little anyone here can do to help you.
As a group we must come to some common understanding that this crisis is the result of failures to use sound management of our dollar and of the rule
of law-not so unlike the conditions that led us to create the constitution-now dismantled by crooks and liars.
[Edited on 5-18-2010 by gnukid]
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oldlady
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It is a difficult situation. Some hold that Arizona's border is the most porous, and that the immigration traffic has been diverted as a result of
better enforcement along the California border.
As far as unresponsive, choose a term you deem more accurate. Governments have a trick of not setting definitive goals and measurement systems that
allow for meaningful definition of the scope of a problem and the effectiveness of the solution.
Indeed some in government positions don't agree that the problem is of such an extent that it needs to be addressed any further.
The governor of AZ believes there is. She asked the government to increase their effectiveness...several times....before the law was passed. She
publicly claimed she received no response. I didn't hear Napolitano, Holder or Obama state that she was wrong and that someone had contacted her.
Maybe someone else did and can link to it.
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
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Registered: 9-15-2009
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Looks like you guys swayed me over after watching this one it makes me PROUD to be an american:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7YrkpKNB7M&feature=PlayL...
Copied From Youtube
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
Posts: 772
Registered: 9-15-2009
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People just dot understand TRUE PATRIOTS when they see them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfhwQ1xoCSA&feature=relat...
Copied from you tube a must watch!
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k-rico
Super Nomad
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Location: Playas de Tijuana
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"As far as unresponsive, choose a term you deem more accurate."
They have been very responsive in this region. I forgot to mention the complete rebuild of the SY border crossing which is underway.
It's a looooooong border and they've tackled the hottest spots first.
Rome wasn't built in a day. Yikes, I said that?
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
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Why has Immigration become such a hot button issue all of the sudden.
You Right wingers came crwaling out of the wood work ever since the United States had a black President.
Most of you didnt say boo when W was in Office. Hypocryites.
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Bajahowodd
Elite Nomad
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Registered: 12-15-2008
Location: Disneyland Adjacent and anywhere in Baja
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Actually Obama's election was a tipping point, of sorts. There are two factors that are responsible for the current contretempts. One is long term.
That is the inexorably fraying of the US middle class that has been occurring at least since Reagan. Jobs scarcer. Pay less. Decreased or no benefits.
Second, is when it all hit the fan with the financial meltdown. Item one was less apparent as long as credit was easy and people were able to use home
equity like a debit card.
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Mexicorn
Senior Nomad
Posts: 772
Registered: 9-15-2009
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ARIZONA- WHAT A WONDERFUL PLACE AND WHAT TOLERANT GRACEFUL PEOPLE! I JUST CANT WAIT TO PLAN MY NEXT VACATION THERE... NOT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQWdSAEdLQo\
Copied from Youtube.
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Alan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1621
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexicorn
Why has Immigration become such a hot button issue all of the sudden.
You Right wingers came crwaling out of the wood work ever since the United States had a black President.
Most of you didnt say boo when W was in Office. Hypocryites. |
IMHO I really don't believe the color of the
man's skin has anything at all to do with the mood of the country but that it is more reflective of the policies and direction set by this
administartion and it's attempt to socialize this nation. Why would you even mention the man's race? What has that to do with the price of tea in
China? It makes one wonder if the liberals selected a man of color to represent them merely so they could push their socialist agenda and speak down
any opposition with accusations of racism. This isn't a matter of racism. It is the American majority finally speaking up and making it very clear
that they believe Margaret Thatcher when she said: "... the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
I really believe this current administration's approach may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back and the silent majority is finally going to
stop turning the other cheek. You are just now starting to see the momentum that is building in this nation to finally say, enough is enough.
In Memory of E-57
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