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Barry A.
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MrBill is wandering into virgin territory------
-----it seems to me. WHO said that all laws have equal value??? Of COURSE they don't.
What I said is that "when people break any laws, they ought to expect the consequences, etc, etc"----whatever those consequences are. (and they are
not equal)
But yes, I do still believe that breaking any law, no matter how trivial, is still erroding the society (etc.), even if ever so slightly. Yes, we all
do it from time to time, often unintentionally-----some more than others-------but my premise is still valid, it seems to me. Bad laws shouldn't be
ignored, they should be abolished!!
Breaking BIG laws, like the laws of immigration, have devastating effects on the society (and so on) for all the reasons (and more) that have been
laid out in this thread.
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Barry A.
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Lecho---------a no-brainer!!!
You are being a good citizen.
Now, write a letter to the editor of the local newspaper and state how rediculous the 60km per hour limit is, and try to recruite (sp ?) more to do
the same, etc.. if you don't like that law. Isn't this the way it is supposed to work???
To do otherwise is to subvert the system, cause confusion, get tickets, pay fines, and generally make a mockery of traffic laws, at least as they
relate to that particular highway-----boy, THAT is a real solution, (NOT). Democracy only works if the majority of the populace supports it (but you
know that).
Like I said, a no-brainer. Now, if you don't want to jump thru all those hoops, then just obey the law------what is so hard about that??? (I am
beating my head against a solid wall, aren't I)
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DENNIS
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Both.
I love trick questions.
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MrBillM
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Oxen, Cabras and Manure.
Just to be completely clear on the question regarding the LEGAL penalties for ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, although as a practical matter the majority of the
border jumpers are simply rounded up and dumped back across the border, this is simply a vehicle used by Immigration because of the tremendous backlog
of cases in the Justice system. The Authorities have the RIGHT to actually charge and prosecute those they roundup, in which case PRISON TERMS can
be applied. This is only done in rare cases, again because of the backlog.
Your analogy is completely without merit (as are you, in my always humble opinion). It would be more appropriate to compare the current situation
with a traffic stop where you were guilty of the offense, but the officer decided to let you go with a warning.
BTW, sadly, I haven't ventured into Virgin territory in many years.
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Skeet/Loreto
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"Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves"" A very good demonstration contained in the Above Threads.
Which are Which???
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Barry A.
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SENT WITHOUT COMMENT
JUST RECEIVED BY E-MAIL FROM A FRIEND:
For Your Information.........
New FBI Statistics on Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens
Sunday 12 November 2006, by admin
After reading these statistics, I could cry. We have an invasion and no one seems to care. Worse, the "McKennedy" Bill (McCain and Kennedy) would give
legal status to these law breakers. If we want to control murder, rape and vicious crimes, we may not need Three Strikes, what we need is to find and
deport the criminals who are here as illegal aliens. The FBI already has a list of sexual predators here illegally. In May they, along with the
Salinas, California police picked up 40 of them. Why not pick up the thousands of sexual predators that the FBI know are here in this county
illegally?
Now is the time for crime groups, police and law enforcement groups to stop playing politics, stop endorsing candidates, and to start enforcing the
law. Our public officials must act now, the citizens of Simi Valley, Ventura County, of California and of the nation are not safe. Read this FBI/
statistics and weep for the victims of our government not enforcing the laws.
These statistics were published at www.polipundit.com
Write your thoughts directly on the web site for all to see and discuss. Pass this along to your friends, family and especially to law enforcement and
elected officials. Ask them why they are not doing more to protect our community from the criminal element of the illegal aliens. Steve Frank
INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.
71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport
coyotes".
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.
BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically
U.S.citizens.
97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.
66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers
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Taco de Baja
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^^^
Barry,
I guess that is what people mean when they say that illegals "contribute more to society....." 
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Cypress
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I'm thinking that the phrase "howling at the moon" sums up most thoughts on this issue.  
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Barry A.
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"Wolves" howl at the moon-----
----I see NO posts by wolves--------just several suspected "sheep", and a few concerned "sheep dogs", some more agressive than others.
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DENNIS
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What ever happened to that crocodile found in the Rio Bravo? [ not just a pretty lure either]
Why build a fence when you can bring more water to the region and fill the new canal with crocks, like a moat? That would be a barrier with a
reasonable intent all around. Irrigation added to a home for an endangered species as well as a tourist attraction.
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Barry A.
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Grover-------
Oh my God--------If what you say is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I have helped perpetuate stuff that is really questionable, and
for that I apologise to everybody on this board. I don't know what else to say?
I really don't know who to trust anymore. That "piece" came from what I thought was a reliable source (a Superior Court Judge), but maybe he did not
know either---------the blind leading the blind?????
I give up.
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DENNIS
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Jeezo Barry, will you ever get over the shame you brought upon yourself?
Just kiddin. This site is a nice blend of fact and fiction, not a court of law. Your post made for interesting reading. Besides, who said it wasn't
accurate?
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Paula
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To post these statistics without knowing whether they are true or not is highly irresponsible. Barry, your apology should be to the group of people
you defamed. Yes, they are all lawbreakers in your eyes, but try to see beyond that and realize that they are human beings doing the best they can to
take care of themselves and their families. I have no statistics to back my statement, but I do read on this issue from a wide variety of sources,
and keep an open mind about people in any diverse group. Illegal immigrants are just that, and anyone making blanket assumptions about them is acting
irresponsibly.
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Diver
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Her's an interesting tidbit FYI;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hispanics lead drunk-driving arrests, accidents
Federal study: Car crashes 3rd-leading cause of death for Latinos
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Posted: November 12, 2000
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By David Walsh
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
Hispanic drivers, as a whole, experience a disproportionately high number of drunk-driving arrests and accidents -- along with alcoholism, drug abuse,
"macho" attitudes and illiteracy key factors -- according to a long-overlooked federal study that shows car crashes are the third leading cause of
Hispanics' deaths.
The report, released back in 1995 by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, says that while Hispanics comprised 9 percent of the driving
population, "21 percent of those arrested for impaired-driving nationally were Hispanic." They also are involved in proportionately more crashes than
whites or blacks, the study showed.
The 195-page document, "Highway Safety Needs of U.S. Hispanic Communities," was based on phone surveys and material submitted by over 100 agencies.
Surveyed were Latino community leaders, focus groups, alcoholism and drug-abuse experts, clerics, health and social workers and law enforcement
officers.
The study covered heavily Hispanic eastern, western and southwestern regions of the country, and was further broken down for ethnic subgroups:
Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatemalan, Nicaraguan, Puerto Rican and Cuban.
The study noted several factors in the high incidence of deaths and injuries, most based on machismo, or "macho" cultural norms. These included:
drag racing.
"proving" one can drink and drive.
the combination of alcohol and illicit drugs.
the enforced silence of young males' girlfriends.
the growing tendency of Latino girls to engage in the same behaviors.
speeding and reckless driving.
inattention to or inability to read signs and signals.
the custom of gifting sons with powerful sports cars, which often end up demolished.
combining alcohol with illicit drugs and inhalants.
Collectively, these factors produce a grim harvest. Auto accidents were number-three overall in the cause of death among Hispanics, the study said,
along with countless serious injuries.
Despite the study's major breadth, scope and implications, Robin Meyer, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's Safety Outreach chief,
did not know of any media coverage of its findings.
Meyer added, though, that largely due to the study, NHTSA had rapidly accelerated its safety and educational programs for Hispanics. One, in Texas,
was credited with reducing infant deaths. It stressed to mothers the importance of "car-seating" babies rather than holding them.
But the federal official could not say if Hispanic-caused U.S. road fatalities and injuries had declined since the study's release.
The study found that accidents were the third-leading cause of Hispanic deaths overall, the second-leading cause for 24 to 44-year-olds and the chief
killer of young people aged 17 to 24. The numbers grow with the influx in the Hispanic population, it stressed, adding that the group is growing at
seven times the rate of the American population as a whole.
The continuing rise in mortality, the NHTSA document concluded, "is a matter of great concern and points to the need for intervention."
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DENNIS
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Interesting stuff Diver ---- ancient but interesting.
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Barry A.
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Paula--------
My God, the statistics came from a SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE!!!! If they are wrong, or not totally accurate, then of course I am very sorry--------it is
not my intention to mislead people, no matter how strongly I feel about this issue.
Nobody loves the Mexican people more than I do----NO BODY!!!! But we HAVE A PROBLEM, and it is screaming for a solution-----------borders are just
that, BORDERS, and the laws concerning them SHOULD BE ENFORCED.
Those that feel the same as I do, are NOT against the Mexican People, or poor people--------we are against CROOKS!!!
No amount of "saying" that we are somehow BAD for feeling the way we do will make it so, and I will be darned if I am going to RESEARCH every piece of
information that comes my way.
Barry
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Paula
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Barry, I didn't mean to say that you or anyone else on the board are bad people because of the opinions you hold. You are correct that we have a
problem with illegal immigration. The problem that I see as most serious is that people are dying everyday trying to cross. A large part of the
responsibility for the problem rests with the Mexican government and economy.
The issue is personal for me because of the circumstances of some of my neighbors here in Mexico. A grandmother whose daughter moved-- illegally--
to San Diego has not seen her daughter for 8 years. She has had one visit from her oldest grandaughter who can enter and leave Baja legally, but the
cost of the trip may prevent it from happening again. I met this "illegal" family in San Diego when I picked up gifts "Juanita" wanted to send to her
mother. Juanita doesn't speak English, and misses her home and family, but feels she has done the right thing for her 3 children. They are all
bilingual, excellent students, college bound, bright and delightful. This is the story for many families split up by the border, however it was
crossed.
So what I would like to see is the tone of the conversation here take into consideration that these are people just like us that we talk about. I
have seen immigrants referred to as baby rapers here. I have read that 95% of murder warrants in LA are for Mexicans. I doubt the statistics, and I
don't see that this kind of fear-mongering does anything to bring about a solution to the above mentioned problem. I suspect that "illegal"
immigrants may statistically fall pretty much in with the rest of the population. Some are criminals, some are deadbeats, and most work hard doing
the best they can. To place a dollar amount on their cost to the US government versus their contribution to society belittles us all, and makes
constructive dialogue leading to a solution almost impossible.
So I am sorry to have offended you Barry, but I guess I got your attention anyway. And I really don't doubt that you care as much as I do for the
Mexican people.
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Barry A.
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Paula-----
Thank you for your sincere response.
I am not really "offended", but I do admit I did get rather HOT under the collar-------------as often happens when it appears that there are perceived
personal insults (highly irresponsible, etc.) being thrown about. I have always contended that NOTHING can be accomplished if we hurl insults at each
other----in fact it accomplishes exactly the opposite of what we wish to accomplish, namely to "convince" another person of the validity of our views.
We don't agree on this issue, but the debate hopefully clarifies our own personal views, and maybe leads to more intelligent and informed opinions.
My Judge friend swears that those stats are close to the truth, if not actually the gospel truth. Beyond that, I just don't know.
I hope that you enjoyed a wonderful Thanks Giving, like we did. I am sure
that we will have further opportunities to try and "convince" each other of our respective views (even tho we all know that I am always RIGHT) 
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Paula
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now just a
minute here....
IF (big if) those stats are true, they are inflamatory but meaningless. A warrant doesn't mean that the person has committed the crime, but only that
he is a suspect. And it is possible that racism on the part of victims or witnesses can cause Latinos to be suspects of crimes committed by other
people-- sometimes by people who are not Hispanic. And-- please don't take this personally-- sometimes the law is more aggressive in pursuing people
lower on the economic scale, i. e. immigrants. So a person looking for evidence that illegal immigrants are killing our babies and stealing our cars
reads this and extapolates that 95% of illegal immigrants are murderers. Faulty logic that adds fuel to a fire that ought not to be burning.
We did have a nice Thanksgiving, and I'm happy to hear that you did too.
You might always be right Barry, but I'll always get the last word in
[Edited on 11-25-2006 by Paula]
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MrBillM
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Burn Baby Burn
I have to disagree that this is an issue that "should not be burning". Au Contraire ! This IS a Burning Issue and it is important
to keep those fires burning in order to force our political wimps to do the right thing, much to their dismay.
Unfortunately, the current feeling is that NOTHING significant will be done in the next two years beyond what has already been voted on because both
the Republicans and Democrats will be focusing on the Big Prize in 2008 and don't want to address anything controversial that might
impact any voter segment. While that is good news on most issues, on illegal immigration it simply means that the problem will worsen and the numbers
will increase.
"Fuel the Fire and Fan the Flames".
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