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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3507
Registered: 8-27-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Santigo:
Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves.
Watch the Nekid Lady riding a Motorcycle in the Streets of San Francisco.
Skeet/Of the Sea |
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Wish all of you that fish the Sea of Cortez luck.
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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A lot of us in the Mulege community have been involved in donating money and efforts to stop or at least curtail illegal shrimping, trawlers
gillnetting all species (including cabrilla), overharvesting shellfish, etc in Conception Bay since 1973. We have seen some small battles won, but
the war so far is a little one-sided. We remain optimistic, however.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Microsoft unveiled today the "Worldwide Telescope". Everyone on our planet can now watch Jupiter in real time. How is it that we can accomplish these
technological feats and not be able to manage baja's fisheries? It's not that complicated.
And then I remember. That's exactly why I go to baja. To get away from our modern world. To live a simple existence where the choices are few and
therefore more meaningful.
So that's another point of view on the matter. That is, the fishery problems are indirectly related to what we sought to begin with.
"You pays your money, you takes your choice"
[Edited on 5-13-2008 by Skipjack Joe]
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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ya gotta lots guts Pam! good for you............cap'n g
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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In my humble opinion, based on experience, the local reef fishery in the Sea of Cortez is done, it's over. Toasted! The pelagics will come and go,
fewer each year. I'm very thankfull that in the northern Gulf of Mexico all of the destructive methods common in Baja have been outlawed.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
In my humble opinion, based on experience, the local reef fishery in the Sea of Cortez is done, it's over. Toasted! |
How can you say that, Cypress? Fish are a renewable resource.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Good one Skip! Too ironic to laugh however. I've never made the connection between naked ladies and fishing like some can. Naked "Lady Luck"? No such
luck, those mermaids are a real b-tch to land. Plus I keep forgetting to stock my tackle box with jewelry.
Ok, put rediculous aside. The nearshore pressure will yield fewer and fewer fish. The whole niche will be compromised and that includes many
different animals including mammals and birds.
We should all applaud Pam. Regardless of the hoops and runaround she gets she continues to fight for ocean protection. Kudos and the best of luck to
her. I suggest anyone else whohas damning photos or current info to submit it to her so she can persue her honourable intentions.
As far a Skeet goes, it's hard to take a person seriously who can't deseminate Berkley from Baja. So to me he's just a silly old man. Take it all
with a grain of sea-sal.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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Skipjack Joe, Yea, buffalo where renewable also. When's the last time you saw a passenger pigeon?
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Cypress, methinks he was joking. I sure hope he was!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Sharksbaja, Me too. Sorry, I fail to see anything funny about the destruction
of an entire ecosystem.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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I wasn't joking. Although, the point about extinction was not considered.
Fish populations can rise and fall with changing conditions. I just feel that to say that you can kiss baja off forever because the fishery is being
hammered is a mistake. I don't think I'm saying anything you guys don't already know. Look at the striped bass on the east coast. The white seabass in
socal. The Great Lakes were considered almost dead at one time. The brown pelicans came back. We've got a moratorium on king salmon here cause the
spawning fish are down. I mean the list is endless.
Non renewable resource are fossil fuels like gas and oil. But fisheries - they come back if treated right.
Remember the sardine fishery in Monterey? Well, I don't remember it, I was born in 47. Where's cannery row? Gone. Just a pier with shops and an organ
grinder. The sardines are back though.
Could be similar in the cortez. The website captn george referred to is suggesting it's already going on. The life of the commercial panguero is
declining. He will soon look for other ways to make a living. Perhaps Pam is right, fishing tourism may be the future - make better money and there is
a tomorrow.
Sharks, I'm sure with your background you're familiar with optimal sustainable yield. That's only possible with a renewable resource. So why the
surprise? Does anyone know the optimal sustainable yield for cabrilla, for snapper, for a single species in baja? Do the regulations take it into
consideration? Obviously not.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Happens to me all the time. I start typing and somewhere along the line I lose the point.
I just start over, try to remember to enlighten instead of just repeating what others have said in the current or related threads.
Cmon Skipjack, give us your thoughts about the fishery. Something new.
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3507
Registered: 8-27-2003
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A number of East Cape posters have said that gill netting is not allowed and its ban is enforced. When did this happen? More importantly , how did
it happen and why doesn't this movement grow to other places in the SOC? Who is enforcing it - the people or the government? How is it enforced -
patrols, word of mouth?? Have the hotels got enough power to do this and that is what is missing further north?
If the ban is being enforced, then when can't this happen in Loreto? Please - no "Because it's Mexico" answers. This kind of answer only covers up
our ignorance. There is a reason - I just don't know what it is.
Don and Pam are on the front line of something here and it behooves all of us to think about this issue and support their efforts.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Well the surprise is that you only see a few successful recoveries but in the grand scale of things man has successfully wiped out myriad species.
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and
theory.
It's already been proven wih the salmon that while we thought 10 years ago our stocks were in good shape headed for full recovery, it was on the
brink of collapse. I can't think of a more remarkable scenario where the science was all wrong.
You can't really count hatchery fish as part of a native stock. Those fish do not usually have the true wild lineage.
One can argue about the various sport fish and mammals that have been saved through mans' intervention with man , but there are many other species
that will befall because of mans' heavy impact.
That statement addresses more than just the seas though the ocean can and is a barometer of our influence. We do boast of our acts that perhaps saved
the sea bass, whales and turtles but the bad news is that we may pat ourselves on the back too soon.
I commented about the rockfish and how they are slow to mature and reproduce. These are just simple facts that we know and understand. The biggest
hurtle is to know their complete lifecycle and how to adjust our exploits.
To me 20-30 years may be too soon to declare a victory. For instance; the continental shelf in cold waters that gets dragged for bottom fish, shrimp
etc. can take up to 100 years to fully recover.
A good example of our lack of understanding can be found in Skeets' post where he and otehrs claim the fish got wise and moved on to safer grounds.
This may be hogwash or not. Can we say for sure that those fish possess logic?
Anyway Skip I do understand the point you make but I have trouble with the whole sustainable thingy. From the standpoint of pelagics recovering due
to an increase in available anchovies and sardines I'll have to submit that yes, the move to limit harvest worked. Remember though, it starts with the
wee little things and moves right up to the apex animals. Some arejust very much more at risk by our hand.
Of note is that most of the important resources that are in danger are at the hand of the Japanese fleets and markets and it's not limited to
seafood.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Rate-of-Extinction-3-Spec...
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Happens to me all the time. I start typing and somewhere along the line I lose the point.
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A bit more distance from the bottle might help.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.
Skeet/Loreto
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and
theory.
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As I recall the yields are calculated annually by sampling the population to determine it's size and relative age classes. Knowing the reproductive
capacity of each class allows them to plot an S curve from which they determine the number of individuals that can be harvested to keep the stocks
growing at their maximums. I thought they adjusted the allowable catch each year based upon the collected samples of that year. But you're right,
fishing regulations had been set for years in my state. However, now we are seeing new numbers each year.
Anyway, we, in alta california, haven't really done a very good job. Even with the proximity of some of the best universities in the world. So what
can we expect from the natives of baja. Personally, I think this infusion of gringo anglers is overall good for baja.
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
A number of East Cape posters have said that gill netting is not allowed and its ban is enforced. When did this happen? More importantly , how did
it happen and why doesn't this movement grow to other places in the SOC? Who is enforcing it - the people or the government? How is it enforced -
patrols, word of mouth?? Have the hotels got enough power to do this and that is what is missing further north?
If the ban is being enforced, then when can't this happen in Loreto? Please - no "Because it's Mexico" answers. This kind of answer only covers up
our ignorance. There is a reason - I just don't know what it is.
Don and Pam are on the front line of something here and it behooves all of us to think about this issue and support their efforts.
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The short answer to your question is Van Wormer.
The Van Wormer family owns and operates three fishing orientated resorts. They are also the "Van" in Van Diaz boats built in Los Barriles. And one, I
believe Roberto Van Wormer, is or was a deputy in the legislature. Also, the East Cape does not have a population center as large as Loreto, and is
much more directly dependent on sport-fishery based tourism. Loreto has long standing family groups with interests in commercial fishing.
Enforcement is a problem on the East Cape. To enforce the gill net ban they not only rely on reports from fishermen and the hotel operators, but I
have heard of accounts where people volunteer money for gas, or even the use of their boats, to take enforcement people out.
Loreto has an advantage in enforcement. They have boats and two nice late model trucks to launch them. For a while, they even had a radar equipped
panga. They are patrolling frequently. Today they launched after 2pm, six guys including the Profepa officer aboard; that's too late to check many
fishermen or tourists for licenses or wristbands. Perhaps they are checking the commercial guys, who may be more likely to set nets later in the day
after the sporties have gone in? I hope so.
Inside the Loreto Marine Park, they need to do two things. One, rewrite the management plan to more realistically manage for sustainable fisheries.
Second, decide that using their considerable enforcement potential to protect park resources is a higher priority than to enforce the collection of
revenues.
But until they get serious about protecting park resources, instead of just re-allocating fish from large outside commercial operators to small local
operators, using the park mainly to collect fees from tourists is nothing but a rip off.
It's frustrating, but while there are Mexicans whose interests seem to be the liquidation of fishery stocks with no concern for the future, there are
also Mexicans who are in favor of more progressive management strategies. Once that happens, the fisheries will respond in time and can improve
substantially. In the long run I am an optimist...but I'm not going to hold my breath. And I can/will be no more than a minor bit player in any case.
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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Yes, Bobby Van Wormer played a large part, along with the sportfishers in the area, in stopping the gill netting in the East Cape while he was the
Director for Tourism for BCS (http://www.mexfish.com/ecap/ecap/af020422/af020422.htm. An artistic example of Mexican politics. He stopped it in the area he was covering, but
had no impact in other areas, even in the same state he was a government member in.
Understand that I am not criticizing -- far from it. Given the environment, I am amazed he was able to accomplish as much as he did.
[Edited on 5-14-2008 by Roberto]
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