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micah202
Super Nomad
Posts: 1615
Registered: 1-19-2011
Location: vancouver,BC
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...can you guys hold on a bit!!!??.......
........I'm running out of popcorn!!
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BAJACAT
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2902
Registered: 11-21-2005
Location: NATIONAL CITY, CA
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most of the time, the damage is done by local people, not tourist...just my two cents...
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
So sad some Nomads don't want other Nomads to see these gifts of our past. I will continue to share our California history because to not is not my
(or anyone else's) right to say who can also enjoy our past. |
How could it be otherwise? A narcissist is incapable of being wrong or learning from anyone but himself.
The only thing sad is you.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64595
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BAJACAT
most of the time, the damage is done by local people, not tourist...just my two cents... |
Thank you José, it is what I have seen on the boulders along highways, as well.
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Long Beach, CA
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I think for the most part ("most" being relative) that this argument as Barry has said is a fairly common one and certainly worth having and DK has a
point in that it is his thread. But I bristle a bit with the notion that if you disagree with him you are out of line. I totally agree with Skipjack
that the notion is NOT that they should be surrounded by fences with armed guards but that the lesser and more unknown sites might be best left
under-publicized (if that is a word!)
When I was at the Great Gallery in Utah some years back we came upon an older gentleman with a cane who was taking a break from the hike and we
chatted him up and he spoke of some graffiti on the rocks from the 1940's or so...he said it sadden him to see it but sadden him more in that the guy
was probably dead and he couldn't track him down and kick his butt for doing it!
If it's a well known site fine...if not, be quiet and those that wish will find it on there own.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Why the surprise David? This DK "Kick Me" game has been played here hundreds of times. The thread has come to the only conclusion it could come.
You started a thread stating that many hear would not agree with you and ended it by telling those who don't agree to not post at all.
You don't like being called a narcissist? How else to explain your rigid, messianic fervor here on this board. You start a controversial thread but
don't bother responding to those who provide you with reasons why you are wrong. You simply state your same views over and over again.
The idea that a site is protected by simply having more people see it, belongs in grammar school, David. This is the best you can come up with? Shame
on you.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17599
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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it's my party and i will cry if i want to
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Sorry you don't agree, but this is my thread,... |
if you own a thread, can you sell it? if you own a thread, can someone steal it? if i post in someone elses thread am i trespassing or vandalizing?
can we exercise eminent domain and take a thread for public use? if a thread is private property, can the owner prohibit speech on his/her private
property?
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Some Facts:
Because a book or Internet displays something does not mean it will be destroyed.
Proof: Not one of the sites I included in this thread have been destroyed. Las Pintas does have some additions from 'locals', but not on top of
ancient markings.
Conclusion: Sharing a rock art site photo is harmless, and benefits those who have not yet seen it.
Knowledge and education about our history is the best way to help sites to gain appreciation and value.
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Some facts?
What fact are you providing? Do you know what a fact is? That's just your conjecture not a fact.
Proof?
That's not proof. That's just circumstantial. If you provide the means to destroy something and it hasn't been destroyed does not mean that you
haven't assisted in vanadalism.
Conclusion?
Again conjecture without substance. You haven't provided any facts or proof. That's just an opinion.
"Knowledge and education about our history is the best way to help sites to gain appreciation and value. "
Well, I have to agree with you on that one. But it really has nothing to do with exposing unprotected sites.
Regarding Barry. I am fully aware that different adminisatrations appoint their own "environmentalists" for their own specific needs. One only needs
to remember James Watt, the head of the EPA under the Reagan administration to see how this org was manipulated. "Land of Many Uses" seems to mean
different things to different administrations. Making someone a supervisor does not necessarily mean much more than that you support the policies the
new administration wants to set.
Barry states that these sites should remain unprotected because they can't be protected. Do you know how long I would have a job if they gave me a
task to do and I would return the paper saying "Sorry, it can't be done. It's too difficult". Not very long.
Besides, I really don't like people who flash their resume to support a point. Support it with information for goshsakes. Stand on your own 2 feet.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64595
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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So, in keeping with the theme of THIS THREAD, please post some petros or pictos in Baja Norte close to a road.
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CaboDreamer
Junior Nomad
Posts: 28
Registered: 6-28-2008
Location: Los Cabos
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....back to what the post is about. Here is a painting that David K and his crew passed by on his adventure in BCS this last year. He was within a
kilometer or two if it as he drove north on the East Cape. The vague description of the location of this "anatomically correct?" figure is to
alleviate any concerns of sharing exact locations.
http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023...
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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DK
How do you know if anything has been destroyed. After you trample around...put your hands on every thing, drive around the site etc...who knows what
was destroyed. You are not providing facts...only your own misguided opinion.....
Sorry but Barry was only a civil servant(low level GS at that..sorry Barry)...not an environmental expert.
and as I remember right, you are the one always touting this is a public forum.
Why are the sites a San Francisco de La Sierra protected? too many people messing with them!
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17599
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
DK
How do you know if anything has been destroyed. After you trample around...put your hands on every thing, drive around the site etc...who knows what
was destroyed. You are not providing facts...only your own misguided opinion.....
Sorry but Barry was only a civil servant(low level GS at that..sorry Barry)...not an environmental expert.
and as I remember right, you are the one always touting this is a public forum.
Why are the sites a San Francisco de La Sierra protected? too many people messing with them! |
in all Barry's time in blm or park service, is astounding that he never heard about the antiquities stealing from public lands in USA. people are out
there every day robbing graves and archaeological sites. prime reason sites are kept secret unless fenced/secured.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64595
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by CaboDreamer
....back to what the post is about. Here is a painting that David K and his crew passed by on his adventure in BCS this last year. He was within a
kilometer or two if it as he drove north on the East Cape. The vague description of the location of this "anatomically correct?" figure is to
alleviate any concerns of sharing exact locations.
http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023... |
Looks like the site Mike McMahan found and showed in his 1973 book: 'There It Is: Baja!' ? Do you have a photo of it not so close-up?
Thank you
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CaboDreamer
Junior Nomad
Posts: 28
Registered: 6-28-2008
Location: Los Cabos
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As you requested David.....
http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101023...
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64595
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Is it the same place as in the book with Mike McMahan, do you think?
[Edited on 1-7-2013 by David K]
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CaboDreamer
Junior Nomad
Posts: 28
Registered: 6-28-2008
Location: Los Cabos
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Most definitely the same site David.
http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y510/CaboDreamer/P101025...
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
DK
How do you know if anything has been destroyed. After you trample around...put your hands on every thing, drive around the site etc...who knows what
was destroyed. You are not providing facts...only your own misguided opinion.....
Sorry but Barry was only a civil servant(low level GS at that..sorry Barry)...not an environmental expert.
and as I remember right, you are the one always touting this is a public forum.
Why are the sites a San Francisco de La Sierra protected? too many people messing with them! |
in all Barry's time in blm or park service, is astounding that he never heard about the antiquities stealing from public lands in USA. people are out
there every day robbing graves and archaeological sites. prime reason sites are kept secret unless fenced/secured. |
Goat------More incorrect assumptions. Where do you come up with this stuff?? We are talking about pictographs and petroglyphs in this thread, not
premier-village-sites.
I was very familiar with antiquities theft, had a Ranger Archaeologist on my staff as well as a professional Environmentalist. The Ranger
Archaeologist I hired out of Utah and she travelled with me and was the first female LE Ranger in BLM, and she and I spent a lot of time in Utah
evaluating Antiquity site protection status and feasibility on request by the BLM State Director of Utah. I was a GS-12 at the time and for about 8
years., one of only 13 Law Enforcement Rangers within BLM. (it sometimes is necessary to establish qualificantions, SkipJack, sorry if that offends
you) In fairness, my staff Ranger Archaeologist had a lot of arguments with me about "protection", and we often disagreed. She wanted to lock them
ALL up, and out of sight-------but we both agreed that site protection was a severe problem since most sites are far out in the boonies and neither of
us wanted "physical" barriers erected so as to maintain site integrity. Most barricaded and interpreted "sites" are viewed by Staff as "throw-a-way"
sites from a scientific point of view---and they have already been inventoried.
It is questionable that people are "out there everyday" stealing antiquities, but it IS a significant problem, especially at the premier-sites in Utah
and western Colorado where there is a still significant amounts of stealable stuff. Very occasionally arrests are made and convictions obtained, but
I would estimate that about 98% of the thefts are never solved, and most arrestee's are found not-guilty for lack of adaquate applicable evidence if
they ever get to trial-------it's a tragic problem, for sure. There are severe Federal penalties for Antiquity Theft, and Judges are wary of imposing
them since most Fed. Judges, and especially local Judges, don't seem to put much importance on prosecuting violations of the Antiquities Act. That is
slowly changing, tho.
But Goat is right in that it is "the prime reason" that most sites are kept secret from the public eye, and few ever get to see them----that does
afford some protection. But remember, the sites of Utah and Colorado (etc.) are far and away more suspectable to significant vandalism and theft,
very important scientifically, unlike the petro and picto sites we find in Baja CA., with the exception of the cave-sites of Central Baja, and
elsewhere in Baja CA.. Also, understand that most of the numerous picto and petro sites, and even the village sites, in Anza-Borrego Desert State
Park are totally physically unprotected, tho most are not readily advertised by the Park Staff. The info on them and their location is certainly
available in books, tho, and many of them have been visited by me because of those "books", and a few others I have found on my own, and taken many
friends and relatives to see.
Barry
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
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Sorry you don't agree, but this is my thread, and it is you who are not satisfied with my posts here. |
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Yeah, pretty funny. "We don't play with my jacks unless we play my way"..
The difference between a Barry post and a DK post is monumental.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Weird how 'some' take words out of context to distort their meaning.
Just what is it about my photos of the petro/ picto sites is wrong, but others, books, magazines is right?
Or, maybe a long drawn-out exchange of disagreements is the food for some need of drama here?
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Bingo, David -------I think it is mostly "Drama"-----for reasons I cannot fathom!!! My first wife was a IQ-138 Drama-Queen-----and often NOBODY knew
what she was talking about. She still has that problem, but we love her anyway.
Barry
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