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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
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Its an illness you find on this board.
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flyfishinPam
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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since this is being bumped anyway...
...just checking back to say that I still don't know the dates that the investigators will be here yet. Once I know I will start a separate thread.
thanks for your patience.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
....Your answer makes sense, despite the "Guilty, until proven innocent" law of the land.
Hopefully justice will win out in the end.
Edit: typo
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by longlegsinlapaz] |
"guilty until proven innocent" seems to apply only to us peons, oops I mean general public tax paying citizens and not government workers or
politicos. at least that's my observation i may be wrong though. we DO have recourse but understanding how to apply it is another story. here, we
have a RARE opportunity as foreign legal residents and affected citizens to use the tools that are legally in place with the full help and support of
the government. these kinds of legal tools are accessable under federal transparency laws that even for spanish speaking Mexicans are very
cumbersome (just take a look at that INM site and try to navigate it, better yet look at SEMARNAT's site or SRE's yeesh!). they will be
making it easy for us by already having much of the information on the accused documented AND providing interpreters and assistants to the
complaintants when needed. this IS NOVEL.
and I hope justice is served as well. thanks for your support!
edited to fix code
[Edited on 1-7-2010 by flyfishinPam]
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flyfishinPam
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Marla Daily
Many people in Loreto paid the immigration "expedite fee" thru an agent hired to do their FM3 renewals, and therefore cannot give "hearsay" evidence
against the guilty immigration employees extorting for extra fees. In these cases, only the hired agents/facilitators can testify. But will they go
out of their way to do so? Doubt it. They have nothing to gain, as they were only the messenger carrying the funds from their client to immigration.
They did what they had to in order to stay in business. If they didn't participate, they couldn't have gotten their work done—securing FM3's for
clients. The officials coming to Loreto need only to go to the various agents in Loreto and interview them. |
you know, if I were an agent like this (which I wouldn't wanna be) what I would do is pay the FM fee at the bank then I would add on a service charge
depending on the amount of legwork that the case would require. I would disclose my charges to my client in this way: government fees/my fees. I
would NOT play the game whether I were either a foreign person doing the preparation or if I were a Mexican person doing it. Agents that played the
game and did Not pay at the bank, and that are too lazy to be bothered to help fix a problem due to lack of it being "worth it" to them are WEAK!!
Playing the Game is the root of much of Mexico's problems. Folks I know are very eager to break this cycle and they do not condone this type of
behaviour from functionarios. it angers them and it angers me. ethics and honesty would be a nice change around here, I sure hope it returns to
this town! the easy going and friendly honesty started to disappear from Loreto around 8 or 9 years ago, and our political and beaurocratic
atmosphere has deteriorated since. corruption here has grown in proportion to increasing foreign presence. and those who are willing participants
in this "game" have enabled it and have made things more difficult for all. we are hoping to break this cycle.
sorry elinvesti8 for overeacting, oh the horrors
and Dave once these guys are removed from their post and transfered like they always seem to be, I hope they are in charge of your jurisdiccion. I
would LOVE to see how YOU would handle them. my guess is that you'd just play the game. so goes another productive citizen for Mexico! for me
Mexico is my future not a just a cheaper alternative stopping point to my end right before I become too scared about lack of medical and return to the
home country to die. my children are here and so is my family and I care deeply for this country and wish to be part of its move forward into a
productive future. over.
For anyone interested, below is a link to a speech made by Denise Dresser regarding Mexico's problems and what we should focus on to improve our
future. It is in Spanish and she is a brilliant bright star in Mexico, a ray of hope.
El Discurso de Denise Dresser parte 1/3 (en Espanol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PpKBFA_xLU&feature=relat...
sorry for my vent its been a weird day for me
at any rate we move forward, peace to all
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longlegsinlapaz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
I just hope the idea that the Feds are watching spreads to some other immigration offices around who love to collect extra money. It is always a
difficult situation and one does not want to make the immigration officials angry---
Looking to see how this all shakes out in Loreto and look forward to hearing about it. |
I'd forgotten about the survey form I was requested to complete in La Paz in early December. They have had "grade us on our facilities & service"
questionnaires from time to time, but this time the form seemed longer, more intensive & asked if any personnel had requested money or extra
fees....many more "ethics questions" than I remember from previous surveys.
So hopefully all the Immigration offices will be better scrutinized from here on out, versus a flash-in-the-pan one-time reaction.
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Marla Daily
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Registered: 9-2-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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In the cases in which I have first hand knowledge of people who used facilitating agents in Loreto to renew their FM3s, the scenario followed Pam's
outline with one hitch—#3 below:
1. Facilitating agent states to the client, in advance, THEIR business fee/service charge for handling/facilitating the immigration transaction (FM3)
on behalf of the client (usually $75);
2. Agent pays the client's immigration form fee (FM3) at the bank (as stated in the web)
[so far so good]
HOWEVER:
3. The facilitating agents, in turn, were forced by immigration to pay an optional "overnight" or "expedite" fee, in order to get their client's FM3s
done in a timely manner. No "expedite fee" [= go to the top of the pile] meant an FM3 could stay at the bottom of the stack for months. The agents had
no choice but to pay the fee and add it to the clients bill. The agents were not taking kickbacks. Immigration was simply holding agents businesses
hostage.
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Dave
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So...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Marla Daily
In the cases in which I have first hand knowledge of people who used facilitating agents in Loreto to renew their FM3s, the scenario followed Pam's
outline with one hitch—#3 below:
1. Facilitating agent states to the client, in advance, THEIR business fee/service charge for handling/facilitating the immigration transaction (FM3)
on behalf of the client (usually $75);
2. Agent pays the client's immigration form fee (FM3) at the bank (as stated in the web)
[so far so good]
HOWEVER:
3. The facilitating agents, in turn, were forced by immigration to pay an optional "overnight" or "expedite" fee, in order to get their client's FM3s
done in a timely manner. No "expedite fee" [= go to the top of the pile] meant an FM3 could stay at the bottom of the stack for months. The agents had
no choice but to pay the fee and add it to the clients bill. The agents were not taking kickbacks. Immigration was simply holding agents businesses
hostage. |
What's the rush?
I've always used a facilitator. He prepares my documentation, takes my identification (which is a requirement for receipt issuance), to the
bank. He then takes the documentation and receipts to migra for processing. Migra in turn, issues a receipt as proof the documentation was received
and is in processing. I additionally sign a 'power of attorney' which allows my facilitator to sign for and pick up my FM when completed.
Once I have the receipt from migra I don't care how long the process takes...Could take 6 weeks, or six months. It's not important
whether my renewal documentation is on the top, or bottom of the pile. I have, in hand, official documentation that proves I am in
compliance.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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what Dave posted is absolutely correct and is the experience I have had for the last few years doing the process myself with my Mexican husband
present (ensuring we aren't extorted). it does take time but that letter that says its being processed is as good as the book itself. what was the
hurry?
I sure wouldn't want to be in the facilitators shoes it would be embarrasing and a threat to their integrity in the minds of their clients. how does
one charge a fee, start a process, and then either have to hit up clients for additional money that officials request, or have to dig for random
amounts from their own profits? how does one explain this? sticky situation. Logic says that if they help to solve this problem their jobs will be
MUCH easier in the future. so actually they have a lot to gain by cooperating.
I still don't have the dates yet.
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monoloco
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I don't know why anybody would need a facilitator, the renewal process is about as simple as can be.
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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when I did my FM3's myself...well...there was always some kind of screw up that ended up costing me dearly...there are many types of FM3's and hoops
you have to jump through if you have any changes of address, job, etc....letters to write that I had no idea about and got fined for later.
When I had an agent start doing them, there were never any glitches and I didnt have to pay for an expensive trip to submit the renewal and pick the
book up. The agent actually saved me money and headaches! I found the agents at some of the smaller offices made alot of mistakes which ended up
costing me big time so I switched to the head office in La Paz and lived happily ever after....sure am glad I dont have to deal with all that anymore.
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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
I don't know why anybody would need a facilitator, the renewal process is about as simple as can be. |
I'm willing to bet you didn't do it in Ensenada.
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monoloco
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We do ours in La Paz and have never had a problem, just drop off the stuff and pick-up the new one a week later.
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Marla Daily
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Location: Loreto, BCS
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What's the rush? None as long as you aren't going anywhere.
Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.
If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then were required to
obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost: $100!
So they got their extra fee either way!
The agents I know left it up to their clients if they wanted to pay the "expedite fee" or not.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Marla Daily
Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.
If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then were required to
obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost: $100!
So they got their extra fee either way!
The agents I know left it up to their clients if they wanted to pay the "expedite fee" or not. |
They should give you the letter if they cannot expedite your FM3, but that is one area where you are vulnerable to an extra fee. They do request that
you come in 3 or 4 weeks before your FM3 expires. If you comply with this request, there usually isn't a problem or extra fee. In fact, they most
often have it ready in one week for you to come in and pick up.
It is your responsibility to not go past the deadline for renewal. When you come to the INS office, you must already know what is needed in the way of
supporting documents. If you don't have your sh*t together, they see it as their right to assess fines or fees.
Yes, the various jurisdictions operate differently from one another. The "standard" operation and fees fluctuate according to the officer's assessment
of the applicant's vulnerability or how he likes, or doesn't like the applicant's attitude. Too bad, but that is the way it is when the whole culture
operates on and expects corruption.
On the other hand, I have waited my turn in line and almost always I hear gringos making jokes, in English, that are insulting to the officers. The
officers are subjected to this daily, and their comprehension of English is good enough for them to understand the tone and the gist of the insults.
A "clean up" drive may work, but it can get stalled out ad infinitum with the pretense of a clean up supported by lip service only. And we do feel
vulnerable. Look what is at stake, and who holds the power.
Through the years, I have humored them in ways that I know are not offensive. I use my fair command of Spanish. Whereas I have indeed been taken
advantage of in the past, they now know me and ( I assume) they like me. It has run smoothly, with no "extra' charges in the last couple of years.
They know me by my first name when I come into the office and when they see me on the street.
From what I understand from those who use a service, their fees are set and agreed upon. The go-betweens are known and have relationships with the INS
agents.They know the score and are not gamed. Whatever their agreement is between them (kickback?), they get it done with no problems for their
clients. Sure, you can expect a hefty fee for this service. To many, it is worth it.
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Dave
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So...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Marla Daily
Since documentation is needed to leave and reenter the country by plane,
people holding FM3s need their paperwork current in order to be able to leave.
If you left your FM3 with immigration to be renewed in the "slow lane", you couldn't leave the country. If you needed to leave, then
were required to obtain from them a "special permission letter from immigration" in order to be able to leave the country without your FM3. Cost:
$100!
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You're saying that:
1. You must have the actual FM3 'in hand' in order to leave Mexico by air?
2. Immigration wont honor its own receipt as proof that it holds your FM and renewal is in process? That immigration or any other Mexican agency, can
prohibit a U.S. citizen the constitutional right to leave Mexico without paying an additional 'fee'?
Has anyone actually put them to a legal test or do you just take this information on faith?
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LarryK
Junior Nomad
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Help me out. Does your FM3 have to be done in the area you live in? I have heard that if you get your FM3 say in San Diego, Then go to La Paz to
check in, they would not honor the transation. Is this true
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oldlady
Banned
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LarryK
Help me out. Does your FM3 have to be done in the area you live in? I have heard that if you get your FM3 say in San Diego, Then go to La Paz to
check in, they would not honor the transation. Is this true |
Not in our case. That's precisely what we did four years ago.
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Dave
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You Think?
| Quote: | Originally posted by morgaine7
Could be that the Loreto scammers were making people think they needed all that, so that they wouldn't opt for the "slow lane" and skip the
mordida.
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I've used the migra receipt to travel freely within Mexico by air as well as enter/leave the country.
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Marla Daily
Nomad
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Registered: 9-2-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Exiting Loreto by Plane
I can only speak for Loreto's immigration practices. If one's FM3 was not done, the "exit letter" was required. NO EXIT LETTER = NO BOARDING THE
PLANE. Who wants to miss the plane? Who is going to stand there and argue "constitutional rights"?
One day at the airport I met a family of five (2 parents + 3 children) from Sitka, Alaska who were not allowed to board the plane (by immigration)
because they didn't have their tourist visas. The mom had thrown them away at the hotel, thinking they were only for entering the country. The
immigration fine was $50 US each —$250 for the family— or they would be held back and miss the plane. They had spent all their cash, and immigration
wouldn't take a credit card. The mom was crying, and they weren't going to hold the plane much longer. I loaned the money to these perfect strangers
from Sitka so their family could leave Loreto, and yes, I received a thank you card with repayment.
In a town with a small airport, few flights and two immigration officers, that's just how it is.
PS: Local immigration knows who holds what paperwork in town! And once one has an FM2 or FM3, it is illegal to enter the country with a tourist visa.
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Cypress
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They had some sort of scam going at the airport, charging additional fees for visiting the mainland. Something about requiring extra signatures.
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