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MrBillM
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Agreeing to Disagree
While the discussion could be (and probably will be) continued Ad Infinitum to the (usual) Zero effect other than making each side feel good about
their position in the argument, I'll leave the floor to others who think it's going somewhere.
Let me know when those changes come along.
If I'm dozing, just nudge me.
BTW, "Red" Harry Reid could change the 60-vote rule at any time with a 51-vote majority. However, both sides are cognizant that the Senate changes
hands and, with a "Narrow" majority at present quite likely in doubt come 2012 due to the high number of Dem seats which look vulnerable, he is VERY
unlikely to make that move. In those close-contest seats, the change might tip the political balance.
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Iflyfish
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I appreciate the thoughtful posts of mtgoat666 and Barry A. You both are thoughtful people who have considered opinions and provide us with more than
slogans and platitudes. For this I can be grateful. It is possible that reasonable people can have differences and maintain their civility a
conclusion that would be hard to maintain with constant exposure to the current "news/entertainment/cagefight" that now passes for informed discussion
and debate. We all share a great love for America and are very concerned about the situation we find it in at this time. We all also share a love of
Baja and by extension Mexico and it's great people.
You will also notice in this particular dialogue between Barry A. and myself that there is agreement, disagreement and mutual respect. In my recent
experience this sort of dialogue is unusual given how the general public has been wipped into an "US vs THEM" mentality by Corporate Media that has
been distorting the very important issues we discuss.
It is my opinion that Corporate Media is using the issue of Illegal Immigration to focus the disease with our current political/economic situation
onto Illegal Immigrants, who are identified as the source of our problems. Illegal Immigration is indeed a problem and one that we are having more
success in dealing with. I do believe that when you demonize a group of people that you alienate them and that this is indeed happening in the Latino
community in the US. The political party that demonizes this population, a now significant voting block, does so at their own risk. Mexican Americans
are not stupid but are also exposed to the same media that we all are and are subject to the same propoganda. It is therefore possible that Mexican
Americans as a group may also be led into opposing their own self interests as the rest of us have been pitted against each other.
Iflyfish
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Skeet/Loreto
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Goat;
I your Postings you often refer to the "Bad Condition" of America. It is hard for me to understand when:
Amarillo Texas and the Panhandle includeing Dalhart and hereford are doing quite Well. We have lots of Jobs open all over.
Texas Tech University in Lubbloc is become a more Top Rated University each Year.
The area is starting the largest Wind Generation System in the World.
Dalhart has the homar Cheese Plant, the largest in the World and looking for 70 more people. A new Cheese Factory opening in Greely Colo this Month.
In North Dakota in one area there are not enough Housing nor people to take all the Jobs being offered in the Oil and Gas Industry. People are stying
in the Wal-Mart Parking Lots.
Texas has had an increase of 4, million People in the Past 10 years.
Now I also realize that places like Detroit Mich has many Jobless, also that some of these people are coming to the Southern States for Jobs.
You keep saying that it is Bad in the good old USA.
Would you please be more specific!!! Not just post Stats that someone may be lying about.
Skeet/Loreto
Old Age ani't no Place for Sisses
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Goat;
I your Postings you often refer to the "Bad Condition" of America. It is hard for me to understand when:
Amarillo Texas and the Panhandle includeing Dalhart and hereford are doing quite Well. We have lots of Jobs open all over.
Texas Tech University in Lubbloc is become a more Top Rated University each Year.
The area is starting the largest Wind Generation System in the World.
Dalhart has the homar Cheese Plant, the largest in the World and looking for 70 more people. A new Cheese Factory opening in Greely Colo this Month.
In North Dakota in one area there are not enough Housing nor people to take all the Jobs being offered in the Oil and Gas Industry. People are stying
in the Wal-Mart Parking Lots.
Texas has had an increase of 4, million People in the Past 10 years.
Now I also realize that places like Detroit Mich has many Jobless, also that some of these people are coming to the Southern States for Jobs.
You keep saying that it is Bad in the good old USA.
Would you please be more specific!!! Not just post Stats that someone may be lying about.
Skeet/Loreto
Old Age ani't no Place for Sisses |
so, obama is doing pretty good job, eh?
4 more years!
si, se puede!
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MrBillM
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Make no Mistake
It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.
The "Us" and the "Them" simply Morph depending on the issue.
Socialism, Liberty and Individual Achievement are natural enemies.
Unfortunately, Socialism is winning right now.
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mtgoat666
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what the 1% thinks
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Skeet/Loreto
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Goat;
No Obama is not doing too well; It was Clinton and a lot of Greedy people from all walks of life that started the so-called "Debt Crisis"/
I have given Obama some latitude do to his Background and lack of Knowlde but the "people" of this Great Country will bring it back in line.
Have you noticed the Lack of support from Obama's former Campaing People and supporters?? It just might be that he will get smarted and not even run
for another term. The Demorats are really going to get their Noses Wiped in 20012.
The Religious bunch of People have Had it. Many of the Mexican people realize that Money produces jobs. Want have to worry about California they will
all be DOPED UP and will not know the difference.
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Iflyfish
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MrBill'M
“It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.”
If this is true how then do you account for the fact that Germany and Japan are our allies? Germany and Japan were our mortal enemies during that war;
we demonized them and dehumanized them by labeling them with derogatory terms. We made the Germans and Japanese people a “Them”. This labeling allowed
us to Inter patriotic Japanese American Citizens in Concentration Camps. This demonization allowed us to kill innocent German and Japanese civilians
without the guilt that normally accompanies killing another human being. The Christian bible says “thou shall not kill”. This commandment is a value
shared by all the great religions. It is therefore necessary to think in the rigid “Us versus Them” in order to violate this commandment.
This black/white thinking is very dangerous. Bifurcation (dividing the world into black/white, either/or paradigms) does not allow for compromise and
cooperation with those who disagree with us. It is cooperation that got us out of the caves. It is this thinking that divides us and has led us into
three failed wars that have cost us the best among us and drained our treasuries and left us fighting with each other for the scraps.
It is not You vs Me Bill, it is Us together in this boat, and we better sort out how to keep it afloat. It is not Us vs Illegal Immigrants, it’s Us
with trees/vines to prune and crops to pick and families to support on both sides of the border that we have created.
I appreciate your sharing your underlying philosophy. I wish I could state mine so simply.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
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The dem game plan for the next election has already been revealed. Class warfare. It's an attempt to cash in on the economic disaster they have
aggravated and failed to fix. Will it work? Depends upon how many gullible voters buy into it.:The repubs? Right now, they're chasing their tails over
abortion.
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Iflyfish
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Cypress
“The dem game plan for the next election has already been revealed. Class warfare.”
I personally do not like the use of the term “class warfare”, I believe it is inflammatory and divisive and not helpful in addressing the very real
issue of income inequity. I will however quote Warren Buffett, one of America’s most successful Capitalist , businessmen and billionaire on the
subject because you raised the issue.
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every...
Notice this article is from 2006.
If you have not read my previous post on the subject please go to the following link. http://tinyurl.com/3hbr8bh
See this from the Business Insider, not your basic Liberal Rag. These statistics are common knowledge and are readily available to anyone who wants to
take the time to verify them. There is very little controversy over the veracity of these statistics.
Over the past three decades, the picture changes — radically. From 1981-2008, average incomes grew by a healthy $12,000. But a shocking 96% of that
growth went to the richest 10% of the country. Only 4% of it went to the other 90%.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/income-inequality-charts-2011...
From 1997-2008, average incomes grew by $2,700. All of these gains went to the richest 10%. The incomes of the other 90% declined.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/income-inequality-charts-2011...
If you want to see why the protesters are taking to the streets see the following charts, also from Business Insider. You will find this information
on numerous sites, there is virtually no disagreement on these facts. The differences that exist among us is how to best address these problems.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3mvx6fa
Corporate Profits have just hit an all time high.
http://tinyurl.com/4ygmv67
CEO pay is now 350X the average worker's, up from 50X from 1960-1985.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3bmcrnd
In fact, income inequality has gotten so extreme here that the US now ranks 93rd in the world in "income equality." China's ahead of us. So is India.
So is Iran.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4ypepll
So what does all this mean in terms of net worth? Well, for starters, it means that the top 1% of Americans own 42% of the financial wealth in this
country. The top 5%, meanwhile, own nearly 70%.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4xwa6ha
The aggregate tax rate for the top 1% is lower than for the next 9%—and not much higher than it is for pretty much everyone else.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4xhvyo2
As the nation's richest people often point out, they do pay the lion's share of taxes in the country: The richest 20% pay 64% of the total taxes.
(Lower bar). Of course, that's because they also make most of the money. (Top bar).
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3barn32
When the Corporate Media attack the lower income people wage earners by saying they are committing “class warfare” it is simply a way to use an
inflammatory word to redefine the very real problems they are bringing to our attention. Mtgoat666’s cartoon aptly conveys this issue.
Redefining reality does not change reality. There is undeniably a great disparity between the real income/tax burden of the upper and lower classes in
the USA. That disparity has grown significantly in the past 30 years of deregulation, lowering taxes on the upper class, Corporations and the funding
of the Military Industrial Complex and its support of foreign wars along with the demonization of Labor Unions.
At the same time the evolution of the 24 hour news cycle and the subsequent need for office holders to collect millions of dollars each day to fill
their campaign coffers and those of their political party, in order to purchase Corporate Media air time, have created a class of political
millionaires who are beholding to their Corporate sponsors. See my previous post on this underlying structural problem that must be addressed in order
to make any real change in the game as it has now evolved. That problem is deregulation of the Corporate Media’s use of the the airwaves that are
owned and regulated by we the people. Most people do not realize that the people own the airwaves and Corporate Media is licensed to use them and
those licenses require certain conditions for use. We could change this game by taking the money out of political campaigning.
Read more about this significant issue at : http://tinyurl.com/5yn3ox
Here is a Conservative Republican that directly addresses the problem. The problem is you will never hear about him because he only accepts donation
of $100 from individuals and his position of taking the money out of politics would have a significant impact on the bottom line of Corporate Media,
who make billions on campaign advertising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JeHtSY9ODw
This is why I take the position that Illegal Immigration, though a real problem, is being used as a red herring to take you and I off the scent of the
real underlying problem in our political system. That problem is the total corruption of our political system by money. If we don’t change this then
we are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It suits Corporate Interests for us to be pitted against each other by calling the surfacing of
these issues “class warfare”.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
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Iflyfish, Class warfare? You can color it any way you want. You've already said you'll vote for Obama in 2012. You're happy with 9%+ unemployment. Good for you.
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MrBillM
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Us-ins and Them-ins
Note that my next line (left out) was: "The 'Us' and the 'Them' simply Morph ......."
As far as the Japanese (or anybody else), it's worth noting what De Gaulle (and others before him) said "STATES don't have friends or
enemies. They have Interests".
Japan was our ally in WWI (after considering and rejecting being our opponent) before starting WWII on Dec 7.
The causes for the current situation were complex and the current (often simplistic) Scapegoating is ENTIRELY Political.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Fish:
I may be old and mean but what do you mean by "Inequites"". Does it say in the Constitution that all People will receive the same amount of Money for
their WorK//
Does it mean that I who worked 17 hours a day for 10 years selling tools. should not have anymore money than the gal or Guy working a Walmart for 20
years??
We are not Equal in Looks, Color, or Actions. Each one of us has it in us to do the best we can, the other Get by, the other just does not care if he
gets his new Car every 4 years.
We are not Equal and we will never be.
Skeet/Loreto
Old Age ain't no Place for Sisses
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Iflyfish
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Cypress
You wrote: "Iflyfish, Class warfare? You can color it any way you want. You've already said you'll vote for Obama in 2012. You're happy with 9%+
unemployment. Good for you."
You have redefined my position. This does not address the issues and information I have provided. This is a typical way that political discourse has
devolved in our country. You will see this every day if you watch your "news" with a clear eye. This is a rhetorical device, not a rebuttal to my
posts. What I anticipate next is an ad hominum argument that goes "so you will vote for Obama, then you must be a Muslim sympathizer who hates
America". I am waiting.
I laid out clear statistics with documentation, a very time consuming process may I add, and you respond not be addressing the issues but by proposing
that if I will vote for Obama that I am "happy with 9%+ unemployment". This is an excellent example of how real dialogue gets derailed.
I am going to provide a list of Logical Fallacies. If you see my using any of these I would appreciate your pointing them out to me. Logical fallacies
do not resolve but rather interfere with logical conclusions. You can find definitions for these Logical Fallacies at this site. I would encourage you
all to read these and keep them in mind as you watch the “news” on Corporate Media. I would be interested in reading examples.
Definitions on this site: http://www.skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id12.html
• Accent
• Ad hoc
• Affirmation of the consequent
• Amphiboly
• Anecdotal evidence
• Argumentum ad antiquitatem
• Argumentum ad baculum / Appeal to force
• Argumentum ad crumenam
• Argumentum ad hominem
• Argumentum ad ignorantiam
• Argumentum ad lazarum
• Argumentum ad logicam
• Argumentum ad misericordiam
• Argumentum ad nauseam
• Argumentum ad novitatem
• Argumentum ad numerum
• Argumentum ad populum
• Argumentum ad verecundiam
• Audiatur et altera pars
• Bifurcation
• Circulus in demonstrando
• Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition
• Fallacies of composition
• Converse accident / Hasty generalization
• Converting a conditional
• Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
• Denial of the antecedent
• The fallacy of accident / Sweeping generalization / Dicto simpliciter
• Fallacy of division
• Equivocation / Fallacy of four terms
• The extended analogy
• Ignoratio elenchi / Irrelevant conclusion
• The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature
• The "No True Scotsman..." fallacy
• Non causa pro causa
• Non sequitur
• Out of context
• Petitio principii / Begging the question
• Plurium interrogationum / Many questions
• Post hoc ergo propter hoc
• Red herring
• Reification / Hypostatization
• Shifting the burden of proof
• The slippery slope argument
• Straw man
• Tu quoque
• Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle / "A is based on B" fallacies / "...is a type of..." fallacies
Iflyfish
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Cypress
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Their's nothing logical about supporting the dem agenda. Obama just comes with the territory.
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Barry A.
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Fish----------everything on your list takes me to 'ATHEISM', a topic I am really not interested in. What's up with THAT???
I have no idea what you are talking about this time------you use several words that I do not know the meaning of, which complicates things, and
CERTAINLY does not lead to understanding.
In other words, you are over my head.
I will bow out now. 
Barry
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Iflyfish
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Us-ins and Them-ins
Note that my next line (left out) was: "The 'Us' and the 'Them' simply Morph ......."
MrBillM
I appreciate your pointing out that I did not include your entire quote, I thought that the second line was simply saying that the content simply
morphed, not the process of bifurcating perception into “Us vs. Them”. I still read it the same way, am I missing something?
Here is your entire quote:
“It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.”
The "Us" and the "Them" simply Morph depending on the issue.
You further wrote
“As far as the Japanese (or anybody else), it's worth noting what De Gaulle (and others before him) said "STATES don't have friends or enemies. They
have Interests".
This statement of De Gaulle is a very useful way to view differences between nations. This view allows for resolution of differences by addressing
each parties “Interests” in coming up with resolution of differences between nations. In my view this also applies to people. By redefining
differences into “it’s Us vs. Them” we set up to more conflict as each side must escalate in order to have its Interests acknowledged. This is the
fatal flaw in George W. Bush’s statement “You are either with us or against us”. This position does not allow for more nuanced ways of viewing the
situation or coming up with mutually beneficial compromises. De Gaulle is making the very point I was trying to make in my prior post.
I am not saying that negotiation and compromise are ALWAYS possible. However if you start out taking a position that “it’s Us vs Them” you close off
many other ways of understanding differences. In the ancient Chinese book on War by Sun Tzu, The Art of War, still used as a basic text in our war
colleges, says war is inevitably the failure of spy craft and diplomacy and should be avoided at all costs.
You stated: “Japan was our ally in WWI (after considering and rejecting being our opponent) before starting WWII on Dec 7.”
In this you are very correct and make my point that reality and political alliances shift based upon the underlying Interests of all parties involved
and that viewing differences from the perspective of “it’s Us vs Them” binds the hands of those who hold that position. If you are meaning that these
interests “morph” over time I would agree with you. This is why it is important to resist positing differences in an “it’s Us vs. Them” paradigm.
You write: “The causes for the current situation were complex and the current (often simplistic) Scapegoating is ENTIRELY Political.”
To this I would say that reality is indeed multiply determined and complex and simplistic solutions, though seductive, often have unanticipated
consequences. Scapegoating is indeed one of the rhetorical devices used to control clear analysis of the complicated issues involved in our current
situation and is not productive. Looking for and understanding underlying processes that are problematic are useful. If we don’t know where we have
been it is difficult to map a path to where we want to go. I would say that in regard to the Illegal Immigration issue we are discussing that
Scapegoating is indeed involved as is the use of the issue to deflect us from the underlying structural issues that are in my view the problem.
It looks like we may have real agreement on at least a couple of issues here.
You say: “Socialism, Liberty and Individual Achievement are natural enemies. Unfortunately, Socialism is winning right now.”
Sounds good, a great sound bite, but fallacious. The reality of the situation is that the US has a managed economy, always has under the rule of law,
and those laws were designed to both insure Liberty and promote the Public Welfare. Corporatism is a real threat to both our Liberty and Individual
achievement as clearly explicated in my prior posts demonstrating how wealth has accrued to the Corporate Class over the last 30 years.
I quote Written by Admin on October 22, 2011 in Prison Planet http://independentnewshub.com/?p=46570
“The following is the definition of “corporatism” from the Merriam-Webster dictionary….
the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over
persons and activities within their jurisdiction
Corporatism is actually not too different from socialism or communism. They are all “collectivist” economic systems. Under corporatism, wealth and
power are even more highly concentrated than they are under socialism or communism, and the truth is that none of them are “egalitarian” economic
systems. Under all collectivist systems, a small elite almost always enjoys most of the benefits while most of the rest of the population suffers.”
Iflyfish
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MrBillM
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Velly Interesting
As Charlie Chinaman would say:
Read an Editorial Page article in one Sunday paper regarding the Whining Occupiers which stated the premise that the reason there is so much
disharmony is that things got too good and people (being what they are) got used to wanting MORE. Encouraged by the politicians, of course. Wanting
more votes.
If you look back on what it was (materially) to be Middle-class in the 40s-50s-60s, it was a LOT less than today. As the standard of living improved
at a continually accelerated pace, expectations
for more-quicker made inevitable mass disharmony when there was a downturn.
While the causes were myriad, as a contributing factor, the expectation for largesse in excess of that actually earned is clearly present.
I remember many years ago (in the '70s), a Union Leader justifying unrealistic wages (in that case Garbage Handlers) said that "Just because some
people don't have a College-Education or technical skills, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to share in the American-Dream". Which took MORE
Money.
While that "sounds" good, what he was promoting was manipulation of the Market-Forces to place a higher value on a particular skill than
free-enterprise would dictate.
In a different time, the Greatest Motivator for people to work hard and pursue higher skills was the fact that the jobs at the Low-End paid CRAP.
And, it worked.
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Iflyfish
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Barry
I appreciate your hanging in with this lengthy dialogue. The list of logical fallacies is intended to address the redifining of my argument. Support
of Obama does not equate with being happy with 9%+ unemployment. I listed these fallacies for those who might want to understand better how the
Corporate Media manipulates its viewers and listeners.
I appologise for using words that are difficult to understand. I am way too wordy and do use words that are not often used. I am attempting to be
clear and probably over elaborating. I appreciate the feedback.
Iflyfish
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Cypress
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Iflyfish, All those communist(collectivist systems) you mention? They've failed. I agree. Your point?
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