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monoloco
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Bob is probably right if he's talking about a cheap back-up generator. If you are going to use a diesel generator for prime power, it is better to buy
a 100% duty cycle generator that is designed to run continuously at full load. The blanket statement about a 3600rpm generator using twice as much
fuel is not correct, the main reason for 3600 rpm is that they can produce more power in a smaller lighter package, the drawback is that they use
twice as many rpm's to produce the same amount of power so they will have roughly half the lifespan as a 1800rpm generator.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Bob and Susan
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think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs
and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible
monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..
a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down
now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no
something will fail...
your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...
there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK
my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and
possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...
most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power
as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph
now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?
the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving
slower
i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see
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monoloco
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Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan  | think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs
and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible
monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..
a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down
now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no
something will fail...
your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...
there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK
my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and
possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...
most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power
as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph
now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?
the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving
slower
i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see
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If you go here: http://www.hardydiesel.com and look at the specs of an 11KW 3600 rpm Kubota Low Boy generator and a 12KW 1800 rpm Kubota generator, you will see
that the 3600rpm generator will use 3.7 liters per hour at 75% power and the 1800 rpm generator will use 3.1 liters per hour, so it is nowhere near
double the fuel consumption. A generator needs to be sized for the highest load, no household generator is likely to run at full load all the time,
but it is also harmful to a diesel generator to not load it enough due to the wet stacking problem mentioned by laventana. I have an old Onan 6kw air
cooled diesel generator that I run my shop with, and I routinely run it for 5 or 6 hours at a time at 90% load because I have a 3 hp planer and a 3 hp
tablesaw that are right at the limit of what it will run. I have been using this generator like this now for 15 years and have never had one issue
with it. It currently has over 15000 hours on it, and I've never done anything to it but change the oil and the filters
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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laventana
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan | think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs
and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible
monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..
a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down
now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no
something will fail...
your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...
there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK
my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and
possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...
most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power
as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph
now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?
the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving
slower
i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see
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Bob, OUCH....
I am also an engineer of a sort, certainly not a generator engineer. I am also a decent mechanic, have rebuilt engines and such with no help from
anyone. Was a machinist to pay for college. That is why I asked politely for specifically where you got that information. Yes, your opinion is
also important to me but as I can make mistakes too.
Now Bob here is where your point you just made may be wrong and why I asked for a link.
Remember for a 1800rpm to put out the same say 5 kW power and a 3600rpm it has to have approximately double the weight of mass to have equal wattage
power output. That is why you can read the 1800rpm ones are very heavy. To slow it down you have to add proportionately more windings to get
equivalent power output i think I had read before a long time ago. .
So here is maybe a more appropriate analogy to your car speed to demonstrate this... What kind of fuel milage does my vw diesel at 3000 lbs Ford
diesel F350 truck at 6000 lbs. Well the truck gets 15 mpg and the car 42 mpg both driving at 60mph, both have turbos. the profile does also
enter into the equation too but not taken into the equation..
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfig...
The military generators are rated to run at 24/7/365 so your definition 100% duty cycle. There are forums that are specifically for these
generators with mechanics that ran them for the military you can draw knowledge from. And they will tell you these generators prefer to be run up
at about 80% load. And running a diesel generator in general for prolonged times at a low load is not good.
So who is correct, , yes I did like your approach to fuel efficiency, but I believe that was not accurate per my example. Before I will be swayed
to dismiss what I had read on that forum and the fact you have to spin something in the order of double the weight is what I have read to be corrected
if i read something different. IMHO
The life there is no question to be half. But as I point out on a small single cylinder unit the costs to rebuild are so low it is laughable. I
would even attempt to rebuild it myself. Where there is no way I am going to try to rebuild a multi cylinder diesel engine.
[Edited on 11-8-2016 by laventana]
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mjs
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Location: Off grid in San Felipe
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan | think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs
and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible
monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..
a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down
now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no
something will fail...
your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...
there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK
my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and
possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...
most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power
as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph
now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?
the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving
slower
i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see
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Using a car/truck fuel comparison is of no value. The biggest use of energy in a vehicle is wind resistance which increases as a square of speed so
the fuel consumed at 120MPH will be more than double that used at 60MPH.
Regarding fuel consumption, a generator is only converting one form of energy to another. If you remember your basics physics, energy is never lost or
used it only changes form. The generator converts BTUs (energy units of the fuel type) to electrical energy and heat. Ignoring the heat loss, it takes
the same amount of energy (engine HP or kW) to produce a kW of electricity regardless of the fuel type of generator RPM. The minor differences in fuel
consumption at different engine speeds are due to combustion efficiency of the engine and the friction and heat loss of the generator. The BTU or
Caloric content of the fuel type is also the reason that a diesel (higher BTU / gallon) uses less fuel than the gas or propane unit.
For optimum fuel efficiency an internal combustion engine should be run at high load. This is a diesel’s strong point as it can produce more torque at
a lower RPM give the same engine design (# of cylinders, bore x stroke, etc). To go back to the car analogy, all newer cars use an overdrive
transmission. Most 6 speeds are multiple overdrive (5th and 6th are both overdrive) Cruising on the freeway in 6th gets the engine RPMs down low and
loads the motor which increases engine efficiency and improves fuel economy. Encounter a hill and the transmission downshifts because the engine
cannot carry the additional load of going uphill. (OT - To go back to your fuel use analogy, my corvette reached top speed -165MPH- in 5th gear not
6th due to the overdrive, and returned about 3 MPG at that speed. In 6th gear at 80MPH it would get 27-30 MPG.)
3600 RPM gensets are popular due to the design requirements of the power unit. It takes substantially more copper (=$$) to build an 1800 RPM
alternator AND the engine needs to produce enough torque at the lower RPM (higher HP = $$) to drive the alternator. So in a cost driven market of
cheap generators the 3600 RPM unit is common. Shop for a high quality unit and you’ll likely be looking at only 1800 RPM diesel driven generators.
And while not having owned one, those ex-military units do have some impressive specifications.
BTW, diesels do run continuously for long periods of time in many industries without issue as long as temperature and lubrication is maintained within
the design limits of the engine.
Also, when considering noise, a water cooled engine will be quieter than an air cooled engine. And a well-designed manufactured sound enclosure will
probably beat most home built boxes. To build a custom enclosure requires analysis of the frequencies that need to be dampened, the type of materials
being used to construct the enclosure, the type of insulation to be used and the required air for the unit and its flow path. I say this as someone
who spent 10 years working with portable film (silent) generators before spending the next 25 working with some of the best acousticians in the
business building stages and TV studios.
BTW, that 5500 watt Coleman is very optimistically rated. I inherited one and it would not run the 30 amp load that my 3600 watt Honda would. Both
gas and 3600 RPM units. I gave the Coleman away and kept the Honda. That's why it works well for you at 50% load, at 80% of the nameplate wattage
you're overloading the generator.
[Edited on 11-8-2016 by mjs]
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willardguy
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very informative, gracias! 
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monoloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by pacside | Update:
My Honda EG6500, by necessity, got overused and broke down. It's fixed but as has been discussed in this thread it has a small gas tank and is not
sufficient to run 24/7 for days at a time (batteries died and couldn't replace soon enough so ran this one into the ground)...and my husband did spill
gas on himself in the early hours and was NOT happy.
So now in the market for a generator AGAIN  . I made the decision to go with
enough solar to handle 90% of the demand and then buy a durable generator that can meet any power demands put on it.
A generator recommended to me by someone I consider extremely knowledgeable is this one:
http://www.costco.com/Cummins-Power-Generation-RS20A-Home-St...
Another generator I'm looking at is this one:
http://www.norwall.com/products/Cummins-Power-Quiet-Connect-...
Thinking propane for both.
I'd be very much interested in any input you may have on this.
I still have 1kw pv on the roof, an inverter and need batteries for the 1kw pv (batteries are dead). Suggestions on battery type/qty is welcome as
well. I like the powerwall 2.0 and those types of things but don't think they are ready for primetime. So looking at ones that will get me through the
next couple years.
Thanks a bunch!
pacside
edit: no grid in the foreseeable future.
[Edited on 11-4-2016 by pacside] |
You are just asking for more problems with those generators, they are
designed for occasional back-up power, not off-grid use. They won't be any better than the Honda that you already experienced problems with.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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DutchTreat2
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We have a 15KW diesel, water cooled, Perkins 3 cylinder engine, Very quiet! (sounds like a car sitting there at idle).. We run 2 1 ton ACs, a fridge,
freezer, washing machine, fans, TVs, Sat internet, and much other stuff.. all this and charge batteries, and use about 1/2 gallon of diesel per hour..
I also have this system on an auto-start, so when the batteries get down to 70% the gen set comes on and turns off when they get back up to 92%.. This
type of system would be ideal with renters,, we don't rent our place but could..We stay here at Coyote beach year around and didn't want to be
camping..
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laventana
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the 15kw with auto turn on sounds ideal to run the home, including while charging the batteries. Afraid to ask how much such a system costs, minus
generator but for people not on the grid seems quite ideal.. Do you leave that on when not here to keep the batteries from (is it sulfating), or do
you have a solar panel too.
For people that are off the grid another potential when upgrading appliances... the new inverter AC units, and inverter refrigerators, invertor pool
pumps have some amazing specs, though you still have to deal with initial inrush of current for a motor/compressor on start up for generator only
set-ups.
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Alm
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| Quote: Originally posted by laventana | inverter refrigerators, invertor pool pumps have some amazing specs, though you still have to deal with initial inrush of current for a
motor/compressor on start up for generator only set-ups.
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Inverter refrigerators are DC machines. They don't have a start-up spike, this is the whole point of getting inverter appliances with generator-only
setup. Though, such a setup is becoming a thing of the past. Hybrid inverter would let you running a smaller generator, with battery supplying more
energy during the spike. Solar is often included in the setup too (and also inputs during the spike).
This (eliminated) spike is not too important in case of inverter fridge because fridge current is low. It doesn't affect energy savings either, since
it lasts fraction of a second. OTH, it requires inverter, this in itself adds 10-15% loss. Other gains in fridge efficiency come from the box design
and have little to do with inverter.
[Edited on 11-10-2016 by Alm]
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laventana
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Alm, Wow I was not aware they eliminate/minimize start up spike..... Never investigated them that closely....
wholly crap that is huge for us generator and even battery people.... That alone makes them so worth it... In engineering terms I always had
to account for that short spike that plays havoc on all electronics through the system design. I was always concerned that all three fridges and or
AC compressors hit at the same time, which a few must have because a circuit breaker has gone one time.
Ya the fridges may not be saving as much $$$$ as a pool pump or a AC unit but when on generator or solar every 20%-40% of a major energy consumer
counts. I was recently looking at a pool pump for my father and that was really amazing I assume they have the actual numbers down for them, he
would be paying $120.00 a month for electric for the pool pump only vs currently $300.00 a month. Ya that is huge vs a fridge only saving if only
20% off of 30 bucks a month electric cost..
here is link that verifies what you said. Had to verify that one... so thanks for the post learn something new everyday.
https://www.bijlibachao.com/refrigerators/refrigerators-with...
Lesser known benefits of Inverter Technology
| Quote: |
Lesser known benefits of Inverter Technology Regular motors need 3-4 times more current (more than running current) at startup. So the
inverter/generator size needed to run any AC or Refrigerator increases significantly.
But Inverter Technology air conditioners and refrigerators have variable speed motors that start up gradually needing much lesser current at startup.
Thus the size of inverter/generator required to startup is less. For e.g. A 1.5 ton fixed speed AC that runs at about 10 Amp current may need up to 30
Amp current at startup and thus a 5 kVA inverter/generator. But an inverter technology Air Conditioner needs about 6-7 Amp current and not much more
at startup and thus a 1.5 kVA or 2 kVA inverter/generator is good enough to support it.
Regular motors have much lower power factor. In commercial and industrial connections there is penalty for low power factor and rebates for higher
power factor. An inverter technology motor will have power factor close to unity (or 1) which not only results in lesser electricity consumption but
also help get rebates on better power factor. If you are planning to use Solar PV for air conditioner, then it is the best to use inverter technology
air conditioner or refrigerator as it not only reduces the size of PV panels because it consumes lesser electricity, it also reduces the size of
inverter to be put along with the PV panel.
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Alm
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Ventana, I edited the previous post - DC machines don't have a spike, but the spike can be dealt with in a different way. There are hybrid
inverters-chargers that would suck the needed energy out of the battery bank (and from solar too) during the spike.
This video explains it.
There are certain manufacturers claims that their inverter fridges are 50% more efficient than regular compressors, but I doubt this. Not THAT much.
The spike itself is very short. Better insulated box - better efficiency.
I would still prefer inverter air conditioner no matter of energy savings. Constant humming is less annoying than on-off cycling.
[Edited on 11-10-2016 by Alm]
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willardguy
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my daughter just bought a new LG fridge with this relatively new compressor, they have the coolest cut-away simulators showing how a conventional
compressor works vs these inverter compressors, very little friction created by these compressors.....on a side note, LG is building refrigerators for
SEARS, refrigerators are identical
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soylent_green
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| Quote: Originally posted by willardguy | | my daughter just bought a new LG fridge with this relatively new compressor, they have the coolest cut-away simulators showing how a conventional
compressor works vs these inverter compressors, very little friction created by these compressors.....on a side note, LG is building refrigerators for
SEARS, refrigerators are identical |
they had an LG 16 CF smart inverter compressor refrigerator 3 weeks ago when I went to the Walmart in Rosarito. 363kWh per year
$9890 pesos
===
interesting thread.
I am going to set up my outback inverter / charger probably this weekend so I can manually run my small inverter generator. My PV array seems to be
fine keeping my batteries charged - at least for the past 1 1/2 years Ive had it up, but getting the backup for just in case.
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soylent_green
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...
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Alm
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I remember a regular "dumb" compressor Frigidaire 16 cf, 350 KWH a year 
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laventana
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bob and Susan | think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs
and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible
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Oh Bob, in case you need it, forgot to mention in LaPaz there is a motorcycle dealer, Motos Baja , had asked him before if he could rebuilt one of
these single cylinder ones. He has one at his location, and he said he could.
Also as a side note a friend of his does all my VW diesel work and says he can not only rebuild one of these but re-build a VW diesel engine if any
one needs the work done. He use to work as a diesel mechanic at VW. He has done my timing belt and much more. You can schedule him to do the work
on VW at Motos Baja. He says he does diesel work on other trucks but only rebuilds vw diesels. So if you do have problems with a diesel engine of
a generator if it is not a rebuild issue i would give him a shot if no factory trained mechanic can be found.
I also know of a good car truck/semi diesel place in Ensenada if anyone needs one.
I have taken my car to VW dealership and they were spectacular. If any one is familiar in the USA to get one new VW key it is USD$300.00 same as
here in Mexico Anyway I bought blanks on ebay for $20.00 each and had them cut at a LaPaz locksmith 3 of them for 400 pesos total. And the
dealership programed them for a total with detailing my car for 800 pesos.
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pacside
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Thanks everyone for your advice and recommendations.
I'm needing to run 1 1500btu and 2 1000btu inverter air conditioning units during the summer 24/7 for weeks on end if need be (not for me but for
vacationers who I don't want to have to worry about power consumption).
Caretaker wants to go with a propane gen (due to how easy it is to get propane tank filled via the delivery trucks) but everything I've read (and the
advice I've received here) it seems like they aren't made to run that long at a stretch, even the 1800rpm, liquid cooled ones like the Cummins Onan
RS22.
How do folks who have a large diesel tank refill them?
I'm a remote owner and want to ensure diesel tank refill isn't a hassle.
Have looked in San Diego for lightly used ones on a trailer and there are some pretty good options just not sure which one is best to avoid the low
load wet stacking issue.
Thanks,
pacside
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Bob and Susan
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leann...ask yourself this...
do you really want to be in the electrical generation business?
solar is WAY better and much more quiet
24-7 electricity...generator ONLY for the AC
do you really want to run a stinky generator 24-7 three months in a row?
remember people on vacation only need AC in the afternoon and night
Shouldn't they be OUTSIDE enjoying BAJA in the daytime?
a propane generator is a lot "cleaner use generator" but double the cost to run...plus...if there is a leak... the tank costs $500-$1000usa to fill
and they ONLY fill to 80% and propane tanks "rust out" in 5-7 years
your dryer only needs a 35k tank of propane...and that will last 3 months...stove another 35k and that will last 4 months
a 35k tank of propane is under 500pesos
If there is a disaster (hurricane) and you need electricity from the generator there will be NO propane delivery...sometimes for weeks..don't count on
it... you are in mexico
I fill my diesel from 5 gallon jugs using an electric pump...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Oil-Transfer-Pump-w-Meter-1... KwAAOSwvg9XaDLO
this thing pumps 5 gallons out in a minute...its fast and easy
I spend 900pesos a night on fuel and run "the thing" from 3pm to 7am
...then it cools and I "service" it daily
You have to change oil regularly if you want it to last so that HAS to be on your schedule when you service it
if I had to run a generator 24-7 I would have 2 units and a transfer switch between the two...
run each 12 hours per day off 12 hours per day
pretty expensive
if you run your generator "part time"
you could set up a timer that starts and turns off your generator at times you choose...that is if you get a good generator and controller
if you get a diesel and a 100 gallon tank on the side and burn 15 gallons a day you wouldn't have to fill it but once a week...
remember never run a diesel dry...they HAVE to be "bled" if you run out of fuel
an 1800rpm generator is a must if you are "in it for the long run"
If you buy one on a trailer...roll it into a shed and use it on the trailer...when it breaks...hook it up and drive it to the mechanic
BIG generators are really heavy and when they are "set" you sometimes need a backhoe to remove them...just think ahead
I've used a backhoe twice...I didn't know
don't buy a generator because you recognize the name...these companies "sell" their name and the product may not be what you expect...do your
homework...ex: Where can you buy parts? and next year too...
good luck and tell us what you get
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pacside
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Thanks Bob and Susan...lots of food for thought.
What do folks think about this one:
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/for/5869292090.html
pacside
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