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friend of baja
Junior Nomad
Posts: 29
Registered: 3-8-2005
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elizabeth
| Quote: | Originally posted by friend of baja
Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim
Grogan. |
Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local
Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.
I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning
the houses. |
Elizabeth, on this point I agree with you, as do many other of the homeowners. All I can tell you at this point, is the concept is being considered.
Are you aware that this project has committed to a Regional Housing Affordability Strategy to ensure direct benefits accrue to the local citizens.
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by friend of baja
has committed to a Regional Housing Affordability Strategy |
Whaa?
Sounds great! What the hell is it?
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friend of baja
Junior Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
" Would you prefer some grandioso developer building gargantuan hotels all along the 3 miles of bay??
Can you tell me the distinction between that and 6,000 homes packed in 3 miles of coastal bay habitat and confined on one side by the Sierra de la
Giganta? Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that 6,000 homes, 5 swimming pools, two spas, 2 golf courses, marina, village center with
shops, restaurants, HOTEL, etc. isn't the same thing? At least Cabo is situated in the Pacific Ocean which can flush out a lot of its filth. They
also plan a fishing pier. I've got some news for them - there aren't any fish in the bay, as their much belated "environmental baseline" ecological
study will show. Another thing that is particularly disturbing is that they plan 5,000 acres as a "preserve" (which to most people means they will
simply leave it alone in its pristine condition), but, oh no, LB plans to take this "preserve", fence it, "revegetate" it, "green" it, build water
retention weirs, put in a plant nursery and create an organic farm. Does that sound like a "preserve" to you? It's mind-boggling in its
misconception. If they don't want a desert environment, they ought to build they're trash in CANADA. (oh yeah, they tried, but failed fue to
ill-conceived plans.) If they had any expertise regarding the plant nursery, to take just one instance, they would have salvaged all the plants they
scraped and destroyed along the coast and put them in the nursery, along with the very fragile topsoil in which they thrive (as is required now in
some mining reclamation projects). Do they have any idea of the species of plants and cacti they think they will be cultivating? Or who is going to
be working in this organic farm? Oh, Mexicans from Loreto - this must be one of the long-awaited jobs which will enhance their lives. Can they even
state why they're creating an organic farm? What are they planning to grow on this farm. Ask them. Ask to see the actual sewage system. Ask them if
the marina is guaranteed to be built. (Hint: read the fine print in the brochure). Ask them if they can guarantee that the Beach Club will be
completed. (Hint: read p. 3 of the Oct '04 newsletter). We await. |
Wilderone, most urban planners will tell you that a certain threshold density is required (5000 homes) to sustain an economic base, and where all
services can be provided within easy walking distance, hence the 6000 homes. Fencing the preserve is necessay to protect it from overgrazing (as I
have been told, I admit I have not walked this area) and allow it to regenerate. The nursery and farm are not part of the reserve, the organic farm
is for food, the sewage treatment plant is built, and the beach club will begin construction this year (Feb 05 newsletter)
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tim40
Senior Nomad
Posts: 574
Registered: 3-29-2004
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At the risk of being told, what do you have against Canadians? And before you ask, nope I am not one. I am a Native SoCal person. Dollar for
dollar, I would guess, and it is purely that, my neighbors within 90 miles of me have bought and changed the landscape of more of baja than the rest
of the world combined.
I have suggested it before....IF a person is really interested in preserving something why don't they put their time, energy and monies where their
heart is and find ways to buy and preserve the land of interest? Talk is one thing, action is another. Get serious, get organized, become
'official' and I am willing to bet many of us on this board and those we influence throughout our lives would be donors to the cause....
[Edited on 3-11-2005 by tim40]
When searching for the end of your rainbow you only have until dusk....
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Sharksbaja
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I remember the way it was...... 10 years ago
Is that what we will say about Loreto in nine years??
After reading these posts I have a clearer picture of what it will like when complete, that is if they hold true to the master plan. It is obvious
people including myself oppose and support such large developments. Mexico(and others) is reaping huge sums along the way. Most people who want to
invest in Baja do so in part because so little is left along the west coast in the US. The cost of beach front property in Ca. is beyond most peoples
income and who would want a house there anyway? The people are attracted by the lower cost of property and homes in Mexico. It doesnt take a rocket
scientist to figure out where the next hot market is. Americans need these types of developments mainly cause they are spoiled and lazy. Why else
would you need all that crap. Are there not enough mini-mall type cancers already? Sure, it is a subjective subject. Most of us are all to familiar
with new developments. Most of us grew up in the west. I personally think any mega project on the scale of this is inappropriate in order to actually
maintain an ecological balance. The balance gets more skewed the bigger it is. Just by covering over that much land. Iam sure all on this board want
the Mexicans to benefit from all this....... I don't think we can really forcast the true outcome because it will seem or be like another place and
Iam afraid it won't be Loreto.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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"Americans need these types of developments mainly cause they are spoiled and lazy."
I don't think it is entirely accurate to label these people lazy; they're the world's most productive workers for Pete's sake. It takes a lot of
perseverance and sacrifice from most of these people to be able to be in the real estate market as described in this thread. The real problem is that
everyplace is getting too crowded - just too many people competing for the same things.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
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lORETO ! Oh my Ole Loreto!!
After living in Loreto, fulltime for 17 years, going there first in 1968, I can only say that i do not think this Development will destroy the Heart
of most of the Mexican People.
The change will be in those Canadians the need the "Closness of their Canadian Friends" to survive.
Contrary to what has been Posted, there are places of "Piece and Quiet". I live about 9 miles South of Amarillo, Texas among about 50 Wild Deer on the
rim of a Canyon, with Neighbors nearby with out having to be crammed in Between two Mulit-Million dollar Houses where the owners are competing to Show
Off their Money.
If you do not want to live crowded up Close there are many places you can go in Baja. Stop, Look , Listen and go on an Adventure.
Enjoy Baja and its People.
Skeet/Loreto
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Real estate tycoon?
"Sinko", Another fine example of the u.s. public education system?
Sinko, perhaps evelynn woodhouse may have something to offer you in the comprehension department.
What I am doing is designed to keep people that need to be with other obnoxious people like themselves out! That's because I believe in
individuality rather than boob jobs and makeup!
I may even make it a requirement that your car must break at least once a month so you actually are fitting right in with the locals, and me
Posting my picture is really wonderful of you although I really don't understand the point. But thanks for reminding me of the shrimp shanghai.
Maybe one day they will come pull you out of your loreto bay and have you help them load shrimp. If you even know where that picture came from.
Nevertheless newbie, I would use all of your Spanish and Baja knowledge to comprehend what is really going on there.
I have the utmost respect for Firemen so that's why I was so easy on you regarding your flaming everyone who dares disagree with you.
You have a lot to learn about Baja and yer not going to learn from developers, I hope your lesson isn't learned the hard way as many people have
already done.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Don?t be surprised if in the near future, you start to see demonstrations against these type of developments, i would love to see the face of those
developers if the locals started to greet their customers with signs saying rather mean things. |
Questions:
Why would you think the locals would be against these projects?
If so, why wouldn't the locals protest before the projects are approved and permits issued?
A large development like this had to receive approval from the national government. If there were demonstrations and the local police couldn't handle
the job, I would suspect the army would show up and haul the demonstrators away.
I am neither for or against these projects. I DO find fault in blaming the developers. It is Mexicans who sell the property, Mexicans who elect and
appoint the officials who approve them, Mexicans who issue permits for their construction and Mexico that grants foreigners the right to live here.
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Who are the Mexicans? our goverment? a handful of people that own land? big Mexico city billionaries?
This land belongs to the people of Mexico, as well as the beaches, and everything in it, look around, the people selling the properties and making
laws to bring foreing investment are just a small bunch, and they care nothing about the welfare of the people.
I wouldnt have a problem with development if it actually benefited the people, and it obviously does not. Our "democracy" is a scam, it does not
work, and the very same people that have ripped off this nation in the past, have adapted and are still doing it today, Mexicans have been very
patient people for many years, but many are getting sick and tired of corrupt politicians, the selling of our natural resources and assets to
foreingners in exchange for nothing.
What many people dont understand is that democracy works great for some nations, but it has failed miserably on others, Mexico is a perfect example of
that, where we have a drug lord as the mayor of the 4th largest city of Mexico, and we have for presidential choices one corrupt politician, one
incompetent, and one populist.
When are people going to understand that free elections mean nothing if the entire process is broken.
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JESSE
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I also want to add that i dont blame developers for this as much as i do the elite and the politicians of Mexico, developers are taking advantage of a
virtually free ride, and the Mexican elite and politicians are filling their pockets with bribes.
If democracy is failing us, we cannot stand and let a few sell our future.
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jrbaja
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You just described the u.s. gubment jesse
Are you sure your not confusing the two?
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jrbaja
Are you sure your not confusing the two? |
Similar crap Jr, but you cant compare the two, its obvious that in the U.S. the primary concern of the goverment is to keep the people happy, and
after that, theres time for other nice bribes and political gifts, but here, our politicians are either:
1.-Too stupid
2.-Too corrupt
3.-All of the above
To care about the people, here they only think about one thing, make money in any way possible regardless of how many millions of people it screws.
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DanO
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Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: Not far from the Pacific
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JR's still right (about the political issue, not boob jobs). In fact, in the terms Jesse just articulated, I see no difference at all between the two
systems. The players in the U.S. system have just been more mindful of public perception and thus more diligent in concealing how things really work.
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tehag
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Registered: 1-8-2005
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lto bay
Friend of Baja speaks like friend of Loreto Bay. Any afiliation?
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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correctness
It is nice to see that some of us see the project for what it REALLY is. You are correct about who will benefit most. The big wheels are
playing because of the big stakes. Money does buy votes and many other things(everything). Just because it appears politically correct......it is
partly right ......it is just that... political. It seems the politicians are doing just fine, thank you. This capitalism thing works pretty good, eh
Mexico. Heck, just build us another utopia and we'll shut up. NOT!!
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
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Crimes against Mexico
Read these press releases and tell me if you would trust those "Big-wigs" in YOUR country.
Press Releases
July 17, 2003
For Immediate Release
The Trust for Sustainable Development and FONATUR sign agreement
After several weeks of negotiation around fine points, David Butterfield, representing The Trust for Sustainable Development, and John
McCarthy Director General of FONATUR, Mexico's National Fund for Tourism Promotion, put their signatures to a comprehensive agreement
that paves the way for Butterfield's massive Loreto Bay coastal resort development on the Baja's Sea of Cort?s.
"This is the moment we've been working and waiting for," said Butterfield by phone from Mexico City, where the signing ceremony took place Thursday,
July 17.
"This gives our Canadian and U.S. investors the certainty they were seeking, and it means we can begin serious pre-construction planning and
marketing." Butterfield anticipates the Loreto Bay Company's construction on the project's first phase, including a beach club resort hotel and about
300 homes, will commence by the end of this year, and that the first vacation home buyers will be enjoying the Baja sunshine sometime in 2005.
Loreto Bay follows on the successes of Shoal Point, Butterfield's harbourfront condominium project in Victoria's James Bay, and Civano, his New
Urbanist community of over 2,000 homes near Tucson, Arizona.
Describing Loreto Bay as a "health oriented, resort lifestyle beach community," Butterfield pictures a 10- to 15-year project in nine development
phases. The Loreto Bay community -- a small town, actually, when completed -- will include 5,000 homes, golf courses, a Tennis Center, boutique
hotels, numerous restaurants, shops and services, and all the amenities called for in a resort setting. The entire project will incorporate the best
of Mexican architectural style and will feature attractive, walkable neighborhoods and the primary use of electric carts, rather than cars.
The 8,000-acre property to be acquired in stages from FONATUR includes more than three miles of level beachfront and "some of the most beautiful
upland and canyon country I've ever seen," says Butterfield. The property extends from the Sea of Cort?s on the east to the feet of the dramatic
Sierra de la Giganta mountain range on the west, about five miles south of Loreto.
Consistent with Butterfield's recent projects, Loreto Bay is planned as a showcase for the principles and values of sustainable development. Plans are
in place for environmental, social and community economic programs designed to make Loreto Bay a "great neighbor to Loreto, a model of resort
development in Mexico, and a good citizen on the planet," stresses Butterfield.
Promotion to the vast Canadian and American baby boomer market for second and vacation homes and investment properties begins this fall in the
southwest and the so-called "raincoast" states, and in western Canada.
For additional information:
Siddall, Inc.
804-788-8011
William Hamby bhamby@siddall.com
Bill Phelps bphelps@siddall.com
GREED AND NOISE IN THE SOUTHEAST
by HOMERO ARIDJIS
from REFORMA, Sunday, December 19, 2004
Widespread indignation has been aroused by the sale by FONATUR (National Fund for the Development of Tourism) to Golf & Resorts of 377 hectares
(approx. 9421/2 acres) in the third stage of the tourist zone in Cancun for the ridiculously low price of 71 pesos (approx. $7.00) per square meter,
even though it is valued at 1,750 pesos on the Land Register and the commercial value is 8,000 pesos. On April 24, 2002, Golf & Resorts (a Mexican
company headed by Adolfo Fastlicht) signed an agreement with FONATUR to acquire the land, two thirds of which consists of mangroves and swamp,
provided the necessary environmental permits were obtained, since the lands, according to TextJohn McCarthythe director of
FONATUR, John McCarthy, could not be developed on account of their "environmental fragility". McCarthy characterized the sale as "a magnificent
operation for FONATUR and for the future". The property abuts the Kukulkan Boulevard and has three kilometers of beachfront. President Fox laid the
first stone of the project last October 28, two weeks before the Purchase-Sale contract.
In 1971, the Wetlands Convention was adopted in the Iranian city of Ramsar, the only world treaty dealing with the protection of one particular form
of ecosystem. So far 144 countries have signed it, and it came into force in Mexico in November 1986. Our government has entered 51 sites on the
Ramsar List, covering an area of 5,101,443 hectares ((approx. 12,753,607 acres). Wetlands -among which are mangroves, swamps and marshes- regulate
hydraulic systems, act as sources of bio-diversity and perform basic environmental services. Loss of wetlands leads to serious and even irreparable
environmental damage, for which reason the principal purpose of Ramsar is to preserve them and for the member countries to commit to encouraging a
rational use of all wetlands (not only those on the List) in their territory. This means providing for "the greater continuous benefit for the present
generation, at the same time maintaining their potential to satisfy the needs and aspirations of future generations", and naturally this includes
preserving "the natural properties of the ecosystem" (quotes from Ramsar).
As is usually the case, Mexico was quick to sign but complied with half-measures. On May 7 of this year - with no prior public consultation as
required by law, and in violation of several regulations - an amendment was published to the Official Mexican Regulation 022, allowing, with
discretional compensation, all prohibitions on construction in the country's wetlands to be over-ridden. As we know, Fox fired Victor Lichtinger, his
first Secretary for the Environment and Natural Resources (SEMARNAT) because he disrupted business, and appointed in his place Alberto Card##as, for
whom the fauna most deserving of his protection are rapacious businessmen. Following the change in regulation, the value of the land skyrocketed, but
the bargain price fixed by Nacional Financiera (NAFIN)-at the request of FONATUR- remained. For the 40% of the land that was mangroves, NAFIN allotted
no price, on the presumption that it could not be developed and therefore had no value (except for turtles and crocodiles, and other species of flora
and fauna, protected by both national and international treaties I might add). In Mexico some 10,000 hectares (approx. 25,000 acres) of mangroves are
lost annually. The project also threatens the reef of Punta Nizuc and is in violation of the Environmental Program for the Nichupte Lake System, the
Program of Environmental Regulation for the Territory of the Cancun-Tulum Corredor (POET), and even the Mexican Constitution. From Cancun, Araceli
Dominguez, of the Mexican environmental organization GEMA, is calling for access to FONATUR'S accounts and for a lawsuit to be filed against the
officials who approved the sale.
That the environment is of little concern to John McCarthy we know through his aborted project to place a Nautical Ladder in the Sea of Cortez, but
that it matters little to Alberto Card##as is disturbing, since, unless he files as a candidate for something, he has nearly two more years to wipe
out the country's ecosystems. If the principal criterion for a development policy in the country's natural areas is to encourage investment FONATUR
style, then we can forget about the Monarch Butterfly sanctuaries, the Lacandonian Rainforest, the San Ignacio Lagoon and give a green light to
sawmills, plastic factories, hydroelectric dams and industrial saltworks.
What is this beautiful project that will enrich the lives of present and future generations? The pretentious Riviera Cancun (formerly known as Costa
Cancun and Nuevo Cancun) is to benefit from two golf courses, 3,777 hotel rooms, condominiums and villas, a clubhouse, a horse club, two sports clubs
on the beach and a business district. Aurelio Ahumada (not to be confused with the imprisoned Ahumada), Director of Grupo Eco Red, the consulting firm
contracted for the environment studies that slyly allowed SEMARNAT to do away with Regulation 002, has called for the construction of many golf
courses that would be strung together to form "biological corridors"!! FONATUR has expressed its desire to "launch Cancun as a golf resort" to improve
the "tourist profile", no doubt in referrence to the migratory birds that abound in the golfing sanctuaries.
Meanwhile another crime is to be inflicted upon the Natural World. In February 2004, the Group of One Hundred, the Animal Welfare Institute and GEMA
warned about the project of the Maurice Ewing, a ship owned by the National Science Foundation of the United States and in the service of the
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, to conduct research in the Gulf of Mexico by carrying out tests with a battery of 20 pneumatic canons, multiple
sonar beams, and laser equipment in order to learn about the profile of the sub-floor, for the purpose of studying the Chicxulub Crater on the
northern peninsula of Yucatan. The decibel levels will rise to 255. Much less powerful pneumatic canons have wiped out entire fisheries. This boat was
held responsible for the deaths of whales in the Sea of Cortez following a study in these waters in September of 2002.
In February we were able to stop this lethal experiment in the Gulf, but now SEMARNAT has given permission for the voyage. The boat is scheduled to
sail from Progreso on February 3 and carry out its activities until the 23rd. It is curious that this permit has been expedited, since, less than a
year ago SEMARNAT, in response to a request from the Foreign Ministry, released a statement emphasizing that "these activities can be harmful to
marine organisms, especially mammals". They reminded us that President Fox had established an area of refuge for whales in Mexican waters. They listed
the dangers of the research for the marine fauna in the Gulf of Mexico, such as, "distorting communications between each other, physical and/or
behavioral changes, loss of auditory capability and death". The power of these canons is such that the noise reaches 160 decibels at a distance of 9
kilometers. SEMARNAT warned that the methods proposed to mitigate this would not neutralize the negative effects on organisms in the area, emphasizing
that "it is almost certain that any organism sensitive to changes in pressure will be adversely impacted by these activities and will probably die."
The license issued by the National Marine Fisheries only permits incidental harassment when there exists no possibility of causing serious harm or
death to the marine fauna. But that is not the case here. Recently the International Whaling Commission, the European Parliament and several
conservation organizations have sounded the alarm over the threats posed to cetaceans by loud noises in the oceans. In the Gulf of Mexico, thousands
of whales, dolphins, tortoises, seals, manatees, orcas, fish, octopuses and other species are at risk.
Who grants John McCarthy the authority to dispose of the country's natural resources, from Baja California to Quintana Roo,
as though they were his own? Who permits Alberto Card##as to manipulate the environmental laws to suit his convenience? The methods are clear: if a
regulation or law is inconvenient, change it. If any official objects, fire him. In Foxlandia, as far as one can see, the old practices of corruption,
influence tracking and fraud continue.
SEATTLE, Dec. 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Alaska Airlines today announced it has received U.S. Department of Transportation approval to provide
nonstop service from Los Angeles to Loreto, Mexico. Supported by a marketing partnership with The Loreto Bay Company, the primary developer of the
area, Alaska's twice-weekly flights will begin February 17, 2005.
and this guy who has no Google:
http://www.loretobay.com/news_releases042904.html
The Villages of Loreto Bay is the last of five areas identified by FONATUR, Mexico?s tourist development agency, as prime tourist development sites in
Mexico. The others are the well-known destinations of Cancun, Los Cabos, Ixtapa-Zihuatenejo and Huatulco. The project will begin construction
immediately. When completed, the seaside community will include 5,000 homes, hotels, service and retail businesses, and cultural and recreational
facilities.
James Grogan said, ?This is a terrific opportunity for people to own seaside homes starting in the $150,000 U.S. price range?. homes they can reach in
a couple hours thanks to Loreto International Airport. At the same time it?s an unknown escape for visitors and a great deal for investors.? He added
that each home built would create one new job and generate significant economic activity to the area.
You sure hear the word "Trust" a lot...
These messages brought to you by..............your Trusty Corporate Executives.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Emiliano Zapata and Lazaro Card##as must be rolling in their graves...
A whole new meaning to giving the land to those who work it!
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: gone fishin'
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Loreto Bay
I've read through all the posts on this thread and through the negativity but one thing is for sure..
I am a business owner in Loreto and thanks to Loreto Bay we now have a direct flight from LAX by Alaska Air Lines.
Loreto would never have gotten this flight if it weren't for Loreto Bay. Since the first flight in late February 2005, my business has flourished as
compared to previous years. Reservations are waaay up and most of the people are coming in on Alaska!
I'm not the only one either, all of my peers in business here have been seeing the exact same thing.
Loreto Bay has just started construction but the stimulus to the local economy is a very real thing! So already new jobs have been created in town
because of this new development. I have even hired two new employees to keep up with the business.
I'm sorry to those who believe this project will be the demise of Loreto, but the people who live here need work and now work has been created for us.
To those who complain, how many of you live in Loreto and rely on its local economy? None that I can tell.
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Cincodemayo
Senior Nomad
Posts: 725
Registered: 3-7-2005
Location: Pacific NW
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Pam...
As a local it's great to hear and I'm coming down Thursday to check out everything with a list of what about this stuff. In my opinion, and I know
everyone has 10 of their own, the project will bring many positive things for Loreto as you have already pointed out.
Don\'t get mad...
Get EVEN.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9009
Registered: 3-13-2004
Location: Sonora
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Mood: Inquisitive
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About that new flight into Loreto.....
.....if Alaska is only flying in once a week, I guess one would be forced to stay for an entire week (or pay one-way fares on Alaska and Aero). That's
rather limiting....what about the packages for 4 and 5 nights with a couple days fishing?
With the added days you'd be forced to stay in Loreto (when flying Alaska), it would seem to add up to a more expensive vacation, fewer choices, at
least for the consumer. Maybe that is part of the reason why there is more fishing going on for you?
Also wondering, Pam, if your increased business could be a direct result of less competition in your core business. Isn't El Fuerte and the small
operation at Juncalito no longer there?
I think there may be more than the extremely limited flights from LAX on Alaska at work, there.
Just trying to understand the real effects of the Loreto Bay project on the economy. I have no opinion on it's merits or laying blame at the feet of
Canadians or rich Mexicans.
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