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Roberto
Banned
Posts: 2162
Registered: 9-5-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.
Skeet/Loreto |
Skeet, whatever else you have accomplished in your life, and I have no doubt that it was a lot, you are shaming yourself now.
I doubt that your Christian belief lead you to think so little of others and hold yourself above all others? Shame on you!
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4729
Registered: 11-15-2004
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.
Skeet/Loreto |
Skeet, whatever else you have accomplished in your life, and I have no doubt that it was a lot, you are shaming yourself now.
I doubt that your Christian belief lead you to think so little of others and hold yourself above all others? Shame on you! |
Well said Roberto. "Shame on you Skeet."
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and
theory.
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As I recall the yields are calculated annually by sampling the population to determine it's size and relative age classes. Knowing the reproductive
capacity of each class allows them to plot an S curve from which they determine the number of individuals that can be harvested to keep the stocks
growing at their maximums. I thought they adjusted the allowable catch each year based upon the collected samples of that year. But you're right,
fishing regulations had been set for years in my state. However, now we are seeing new numbers each year.
Anyway, we, in alta california, haven't really done a very good job. Even with the proximity of some of the best universities in the world. So what
can we expect from the natives of baja. Personally, I think this infusion of gringo anglers is overall good for baja. |
Darn good perception Skipjack! The science though sincere in context barely addresses many factors which ultimately could help retrieve the knowledge
necessary to predict current and future stocks.
Using the sabastes (sp.)complex as a template for quantifying accuracy accumulated by researchers we come to find conflicting data.
On one hand, sampling done by NOAA and state F&G has provided numbers that conversely are rejected by local skippers and commercial fishermen.
That is not to say that certain stressed species have been identified but the method of expressing the numbers collectively may not and most likely
does not represent the true condition of a particular species, location or habitat. In other words, they have been grouping groundfish and thusly
publishing(imo) skewed data.
You are right Skip, regs set in one year do not accurately reflect the most current findings. More than that, but when new facts are published they
more often than not jump to conclusions when instituting new rules and regs.
Don't misread me, the regs are necessary to address various fisheries. I must agree that Gringos do bring with them to Mexico an amount of education
based on our own delemmas. It is to the great benefit of Mexico that waters that many of us promote ideals of protecting a variety of animals.
Will any of our own conscientious behavior help resolve or influence any related problems south of the border. I say yes.
Thanks to the many folks here and there that do give a ratsass in any country..
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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******
********************************************* ************************
As and ole Timer on the Sea of Cortez I have only releated my Experiences, the Last was a Month ago when I fished as I did 20 and 30 years ago, All
Facts[ Fish every where Bait by the Millions, Whales, Sharks, Dolphins, Yellowtail by the Thousands!
Question: Why after several years of Decline in some Areas, such as the Park, have the Fish shown as they have?????
Question: Why are there Less Commercials on the Water than in the Past??
Words: The Sky is Falling!!!
Substance: The Fish are There; Go see!
Skeet/Of the Sea
[Edited on 5-15-2008 by Hose A]
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
Posts: 1727
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Loreto, BCS
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Mood: gone fishin'
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Hey Don or anyone else out there that gets any more pictures of violations in the Loreto Marine Park please post them on this board. the bajanomad
fishing forum
If possible post as a new thread for each complaint of a particular violation.
I am hoping to create a log of violations and complaints and the responses and actions of the Marine Park as it pertains to them. I hope that makes
sense.
I want to consolidate this log at this website
http://www.bajabigfish.com/marinepark.html
and present it to the organizations that fund this park. The park needs to be held responsible for their actions or inaction in this case. While I
do appreciate what the park has done so far in terms of education programs and clean-ups they are seriously dropping the ball on this issue!
I could create my own log on my own server but this one (bajanomad.com) is already in place and its better than I can put together so quickly. If
each complaint keeps its own thread then the other files that need to be added to it such as information, e-mails to and from the park and images can
be kept together.
[Edited on 5-19-2008 by flyfishinPam]
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Iflyfish
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Registered: 10-17-2006
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Sharks, I appreciate your reference to studies. Is there a literature on this subject. What can it tell us?
Opinions are cheap, individual observations unreliable, where is the science?
From what Sharks, Skeet and others have written it seems like the subject is a moving target, literally. So studying it in one place may not provide
adequate information as to the risks to the entire population. These are issues for legitimate research. Is this happening? Can anyone cite findings?
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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I find the following in a Google search on Fish Populations in the Sea of Cortez:
http://www.seawatch.org/bibliography/bibliography.php
Are all of these studies wrong? Are they all biased? Are they all pot addled Berkley Grads?
I found a lot of research on the subject via this search. Is it all just opinion as the current batch of right wing ideologues would have us believe.
Is all science just opinion like the "theory" of evolution? Is it not true that god will look out for us and the species that support us so science is
nonsense at least and useless at best because it is just opinion?
There are those who oppose science because they see it as anti god and those that see a god in nature so anything that "interferes" with nature is
"evil". This "naturalism" is of course just another form of religion. We had better pay attention to our science, not to do so is to risk of our own
peril.
There are some ecosystems that indeed will never come back. There indeed are species that have gone extinct on our watch. To deny this reality is to
whistle in the face of our own potential extinction, which some right wing religious neo-con policy makers believe to be in our interest as it will
hasten Armageddon, an event longed for by many of them.
To quote Ronald Reagan when confronted with the imminent loss of the Redwoods said "If you want to see a tree, look at a picture"
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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FlyfishingPam,
My hat is off to you! You are not letting this issue go! Nor are you allowing the issue to be re-defined.
Excellent documentation and good resources for those with a stake in this issue. Clear as a bell!
Fundamental to good science is sound observation and you provide it here in incontrovertible means.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
To quote Ronald Reagan when confronted with the imminent loss of the Redwoods said "If you want to see a tree, look at a picture"
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... and he had the gall to tell Ansel Adams that he considerated himself to be an outdoorsman. Why? Because he loved to spend time on his ranch in
Santa Barbara.
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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Robin Reagan of Redwood Forest?
Was that him I saw going up the coastal route a few years back?
Or..could it have been....Sasquatch!
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Wow! A pic of both Reagan and Trees!
Good one!
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Well, that's what's interesting. There are numerous articles with numbers that show declining fisheries. But I found none that contain data estimating
fish populations (yes, the two are related). I would appreciate any links to measurements of fish stocks over a period of time.
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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Therin lies the major problem. If you were a cattle rancher you would know exactly how many head of cattle you have and the physical and perhaps
emotional state of those cattle. Now fish, on the other hand, are subject to interpretations of those who are neither scientifically trained or as in
the case of my friend Skeet, not even scientifically oriented, then you have a real problem with a qualitative analysis of something that is pretty
much invisible. That may explain a whole lot of the superstitions surrounding fishing as we believe we have better luck without bananas on the boat
or some other well thought out belief.
Salmon management in Alaska totally amazed me and they have developed very accurate and precise methods to accurately measure the numbers of fish
going up any given stream and are thereby able to more carefully manage the whole situation. I have trouble believing that might happen in my
lifetime in Mexico.
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Pompano
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Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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Right, Igor...Just how many fish ARE there left in the sea? And who/how/where are the studies? It would have to be just a good guess-timate at
best.
When that last one is caught..like the last Auk...then we will know.
Rest in Peace, Fish of the Cortez...I knew thee well.
p.s. Like Pescador mentions, Alaskan efforts to increase salmon stocks have succeeded well in the last few years. Plus the ability to accurately
count the returning salmon is a major factor. We were involved in the commercial salmon business there a long time ago...kings and reds mostly..and
always waited to hear the escapement numbers on the vhf radio put out by the Game and Fish Dept. This was mandatory...AND ENFORCED...you cheat, you
go to jail and lose it all.
Many other landlocked fisheries are prospering around the nation and in Canada. Lake Sakakawea is full of pike and walleyes..thanks to a well-managed
system and introduction of suitable forage fish like the rainbow smelt. It's all about good science and regulation. I could site many other lakes,
rivers, and watersheds...but you get the idea. You have to WANT to make an improvement.
[Edited on 5-19-2008 by Pompano]
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Salmon management in Alaska totally amazed me and they have developed very accurate and precise methods to accurately measure the numbers of fish
going up any given stream and are thereby able to more carefully manage the whole situation. I have trouble believing that might happen in my
lifetime in Mexico.
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Excellent!
I'm glad you brought this example up Jim. I wanted to last week but am often accused of straying from the subject.
I too was amazed at the sophistication of fish management in Alaska. The fish limit changes DAILY. Fishermen are expected to read the paper before
they venture out and know what they can bring home. Their streams are monitored in realtime, knowing exactly (pretty close) how much spawn is required
to maintain their fish stocks and how much spawn has been produced at any point in time. Once that threshhold is reached the limits suddenly change
and alaskans are welcome to pursue their sport.
The science is put into effect and works as it should. They've had a very stable sportfishery for some time now.
In one respect managing cabrilla is doable. They don't migrate. They have a defined territory and the marine parks at least are small enough that with
proper sampling and statistics you should be able to get close numbers. It's not unlike the measurements of fish stocks at the Channel Islands the
CADFG has done.
The thirld world countries have many disadvantages. But there is one big advantage they all have. And that's that all of the science has already been
done for them by the leading powers. We've already made our mistakes and learned from them. And now it's available for Mexico.
P.S. by the time I finish writing you've already posted your comments, Pompano. Good, I just support them.
[Edited on 5-19-2008 by Skipjack Joe]
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Ever heard of the "Tragedy of the Commons"?
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Is that the story of the working mans life Cypress?
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Capt. George,  The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea". Most working men don't have a clue. They're hard pressed to make it from one paycheck to the next.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Capt. George, The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea".
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Interesting you should bring that up. I read just a few weeks ago that the most numerous species of fish on our planet lives at somewhere like 4000
feet below the surface. It's about the size of a sardine. I guess we just haven't come up with nets that go down that deep. These rascals have evaded
us.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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They sure are Cypress, the destruction of the Unions no small part of that.
Corporate America rules...what next?, nine year olds back in the Fall River sweat shops?
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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