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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65278
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Egg-zackly! 
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durrelllrobert
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7393
Registered: 11-22-2007
Location: Punta Banda BC
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Mood: thriving in Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
do you think we could genetically engineer a sardine that yields a high when smoked or snorted? |
I love
smoked sardines, yummy
Bob Durrell
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
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I tried smoking sardines but couldn't keep them lit.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Good to see sides haven't changed... on this ... or the economy ..
As it's ALL really tied together ... great news ... for Christmas... NOT !!
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3879
Registered: 2-9-2004
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“You just do not understand that you have to get out on that Water, day afte Day, watch the Birds, observe the changes in the Water, dive around the
islands, talk to the old time mesican Fisherman, in other words be a Part of it and be honest about what you see.”
I HAVE – USED TO SNORKLE AT CONCEPTION BAY IN 1972 – SAW DAMSEL FISH, CAUGHT TRIGGER FISH FROM SHORE, DIVED FOR SCALLOPS, LOTS OF SEA GRASSES – NOW
NOTHING - NOTHING – NOTHING. KAYAKED AND SNORKLED ALL OVER THE ISLANDS OFF BOLA IN 2005 – NOTHING – NOTHING – NOTHING. NOT EVEN ENOUGH FOR AN OSPREY
TO FEED ITS CHICKS – I WATCHED IT FOR 3 DAYS.
When is the last time YOU were in the water and observed, Skeet?
Do you really believe the Mexican fishermen will tell you it hasn't changed for the worse? You refuse to educate yourself - you re in denial.
Foolish.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65278
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Again, in 1972 the paved road south ended in San Quintin and didn't begin again until Santa Rosalia... that gap kept out the masses of fishermen and
noise that keep the fish away!
Save the fish, remove Hwy. 1 !! 
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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DK... have to agree with you on the road ... it all changed with the road... big time
But, as they say ... "progress" ... like it or not
[Edited on 12-21-2011 by wessongroup]
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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I too have been i conception and Yes when they let the Clam Fisherman come in and they took all the Clams, Yes the Fish MOVED OUT TO OTHER AREAS.
i WAS ON THE WATER 6 MONTHS AGO, 2 YEARS AGO i FISHED AND OBSERVED fISH ON TOP OF THE WATER BY THE mILLONS, bAIT fISH, bIRDS .\nOW WE SEE pHOTOS OF
sARDINES BY THE mILLIONS.
wHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU pEOPLE.
yES THE FISHINF HAS BEEN AFFECTED AND DECLINED IN hARD hIT aREAS BUT TO MAKE A STATEMENT THAT THE fISH ARE gONE IS sTUPID. sTUPID!!!!!!!
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sancho
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2524
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: OC So Cal
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Arriving in Loreto in1967 I started fishing wigh Alvaro Murillo in his wooden Panga for $20 a Day staying at the Hotel Oasis for $9 a Day with 3
meals.
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I generally acquiesce to experience/longeviety, and I will here, '67 is a ways back, but scientific observation/theory
should be included when forming an opinion,
I do like the way you never waver from your position
Merry XMas Sr. Skeet
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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The Fish are in the Sea of Cortez and will always be there!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL NOMADS
Let us all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.
Skeet/Loreto
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motoged
Elite Nomad
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Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pompano
.... I gave up drinking. So, I'll toast you with a beer. [/size] |
Now THERE is some Skeeter logic
I am amazed that a simple story about Agua Verde has the most hits on this forum lately.
Maybe my next missive will be: "There are SOME Fish left"
Happy Holy Daze, amigos
Don't believe everything you think....
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
... and the animal will return if it is meant to be.
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Talk about leaving things up in the air, as if science didn't exist and we didn't know anything.
What, please tell me, do you use to inform your opinion, David? What do you read? Or is it all based on your personal observations?
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Long Beach, CA
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The fish are not gone...but there is no doubt there are less of them. You cannot CANNOT compare a world of 70 years ago to one of now with billions
more people that need to be fed...or want a sushi dinner. As long as there is a buck to be made the fish will continue to decline and it is not the
sport fishermen but the commercial fleets. I have seen it first hand where we find the school and struggle to land six to ten fish and then the
trawler shows up (via the spotter plane), sends out the nets and grabs thousands in less than 30 minutes.
The Sea of Cortez since it is completely controlled by the Mexican government could be the model of the world on how to properly manage and control a
body of water.
Don't hold yer breath.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 65278
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
... and the animal will return if it is meant to be.
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Talk about leaving things up in the air, as if science didn't exist and we didn't know anything.
What, please tell me, do you use to inform your opinion, David? What do you read? Or is it all based on your personal observations?
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Good morning Steve!
Of ALL the cool replies I posted in this thread, you grabbed a small part of one I wrote 5 days ago to ask me about? Seriously?
Let's quote my full reply instead of just a portion of it... you know as a refresher after 5 days:
>>> "Another point is one that the Sierra Club and other leftist organizations never mention, and that is that we humans are a natural part
of this planet just as much as the sardines and turtles.
Yes, we can eat until a species is reduced to a point that we eat something else... but, Nature is so far stronger than man ever gives it credit for
and the animal will return if it is meant to be.
One thing for certain is change... If you live long enough, things are going to be changing before your eyes... Sardines will disappear... and perhaps
come back again more than before... The weather will seem warmer for a few years, then we will have the coldest years...
We have changed our habits and have performed differently than the past as far as limiting our take of certain species, eco-management if it proves to
benefit our ability to take from the sea on a regular basis. The co-ops of Bahia Asuncion, Abreojos, etc. seem to have it down as a science. Great!
The main point here is to have some faith in Planet Earth, not blame humans for everything, and just do the best you can at living your life."
<<<
Is it still "up in the air" now, with the rest of the post included?
My point (if still not clear) is that Nature (God, Mother Earth, or ???) is the normal and natural operation going on here on earth. Mankind can no
more change what Nature intends on the earth than Al Gore can admit he has lied to you about Global Warming...
Have a great day and a Merry Christmas!!!
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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We have argued this point before and will continue to argue it again. But the fish stocks are way down in the middle Sea of Cortez. I fish this
almost every day and for the last five years have fished it with the pangueros who make their living from the sea. So I am constantly talking to the
divers, the netters, the hand liners, and the guys who put out long lines. First, we have had a serious La Nina effect which has moved the Squid out
of the Santa Rosalia area and moved them way up north where there is still an active upwelling. This has also changed the migration patterns of the
yellowtail and they are showing up in shorter supply than normal. So on one hand Skeet is probably right, if you want to see more fish you have to go
to different areas. That may well be right, but the reality is that 10 years ago, you did not have to do that and the populations were so strong that
when one school moved out another was right behind it to take its place. When we fish the reefs of Tortuga Island and San Marcos we know when a
group of fish has migrated in to the area as all the fish have the same characteristics and personality and are of a consistency in size. In maybe a
week or less, they get replaced by another school or group of fish and things change enough so that your presentation and methods of catching have to
change a little also. But now, what happens is that we have voids of when the fish move on and we might wait for a week or more for another group to
move in and take their place. I think this happens because of the increased pressure of netting where the locals haul in 20-50 tons of fish in a
days time. In the old days they were unable to net yellowtail in close to the rocks because it meant total destruction of your nets, but they have
learned to put 5- 10 divers over the side and they move the nets to the middle over the rocks and of course take every swimming finned creature that
moves as well. So they are wiping out the majority of a school which is not there in the normal migration. So what we feel are these major gaps in
migration schools.
Now, with a hook and a line, it is almost impossible to wipe out a complete school of fish because only a few fish who see the bait are going to go
after it. I have been diving and observed a yellowtail school and only a couple of the fish are normally motivated to eat a bait properly presented
to them. So, with normal rod and reel or handline, you will only skim the surface of available fish and the rest are able to go on. Netting, on the
other hand takes everything that swims into the area of the net. That is why the Yellowfin Tuna which used to be so prevelant in the Sea of Cortez is
now becoming a rare catch.
One of the species that is showing serious depletion is the grouper and bottom fishes. These are specific location fish and are readily
overfished and overharvested. There is a sea mount straight east of Punta Chivato which used to hold massive amounts of Baqueta or Gulf Coney fish.
These were very difficult to fish as the depths ranged from 425 to 675 feet so conditions had to be right for harvest. The pangueros from Mulege
found that there were a lot of fish and the market was very good for the Baqueta since it brought almost 4 times as much as Yellowtail so they started
to really pound that area. They used Simbras which is like a long line with 100's of hooks but anchored deep at both ends. They completely wiped out
the entire population and after leaving it alone since the fish were gone, it has taken almost 10 years for any fish to return to the area and now
there are a limited number of fish available for those who are persistent.
So, Skeet is right at one point, there are still a lot of fish in the Sea of Cortez and it is possible to see the massive surface boils he describes.
Two days ago, we had a massive boil of feeding fish on the North end of San Marcos Island, but the fish moved out the next day and we may not see
anything more for at least a week.
Another interesting point is the size of yellowtail. In the last 4 years I have caught bigger yellowtail than I have ever seen in these waters. On
one hand that sounds like a good thing, but when examined, it is obvious that less competition for the available food will let some fish grow to
largers sizes than normal, but as with fresh water lakes where that happens, it is usually one of the indicators that the numbers of fish are down.
Because I am so closely involved with the pangueros of our area and have kept fairly accurate records for the last 5 years or so, I can easily say
that the numbers are dwindling rapidly and the catch of the commercial guys is way down from even two years ago. Squid have been non-existent for
the last three years (but that is weather related), so the fishermen are moving on to other ways to make a living for their families. Thank goodness
the Boleo Mine came in when it did and has offered a alternative to the harvest of the sea. It is still sad though to see things go that rapidly
downhill in such a short time.
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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"Mankind can no more change what Nature intends on the earth than Al Gore can admit he has lied to you about Global Warming... "
Respectfully I disagree with you. Man is the only critter that CAN change for good or bad some of what was or is.
[Edited on 12-22-2011 by Russ]
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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Please excuse this short hijack.
I am a history buff...and so will pontificate on some notable history involving world change by non-humans.
Rats, through the diseases they carry, have probably killed more people than any war or natural disaster. In the 13th and 14th centuries, Europle
lost up to 60% of it's population. Added to that was the devastation in China. The total loss of the world's population is estimated to be 100
million people.
Are you still drinking your morning coffee? Goats may have been the first to discover it.
Viva History!
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Vag:
Very well said and very Truthful!!
Skeet/Loreto
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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With regard to the issue of fish stocks in the Sea of Cortez these days, or global warming or Climate Change or whether or not Man is causing either
or all of these circumstances, it seems to me to be off track, delusional, unrealistic, illogical, and down right irresponsible to assess these issues
using a faith based perspective instead of a fact based perspective.
While nature certainly has regenerative qualities and the complexity of the universe presents a face of perpetual change, it is folly to have a blind
faith that all will work out on its own. You know, there have been many permanent changes such as extinction of many animals and vegetation.
To ignore and discount the effect of accelerated and often wreckless consumption by a growing human population aided by the harvesting efficiencies of
technology which often occurs in excess due to human self interest (such excesses often causing damaging externalities) is just plain wrong and wrong
headed. Such a perspective will certainly not yield any solutions. Keep in mind that the emerging countries of China and India and others are now
just starting to come on board in an accelerated way as consumers.
Just what do you faith-based people think that will do to mother earth? The USA currently consumes 25% of the world's resources and we are only 5% of
the world's population. Be fact based for a few monents and do the math considering that the emerging countries are going to be consuming
proportionately more and more as they come on board. We have 5% of the world's population and they together have over 40%. Come on, think with your
head! Not that complicated.
The question is whether or not the damaging by products and externalities of recent past, current and future consumption will out strip nature's
ability to regenerate and recuperate from such damage. Those of you who are faith based are either not asking yourselves that question or you are
unwittingly refusing to ask the question.
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redhilltown
Super Nomad
Posts: 1130
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Long Beach, CA
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"Yes, we can eat until a species is reduced to a point that we eat something else... but, Nature is so far stronger than man ever gives it credit
for and the animal will return if it is meant to be."
Meant to be? Like, animals have a destiny? If the next Yellowtail I catch is wearing a crucifix...
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