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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Capt. George,  The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea".
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I read just a few weeks ago that the most numerous species of fish on our planet lives at somewhere like 4000 feet below the surface. It's about the
size of a sardine. I guess we just haven't come up with nets that go down that deep. These rascals have evaded us. |
...and now a vast multitude of small starfish have been discovered covering the ocean floor beneath the polar cap. What's Japanese for starfish
sushi?
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Yummy??
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Skipjack, you ask a good question, one that is indeed difficult to answer. There are studies of fish in the Sea of Cortez but few that actually count
numbers of fish as has been done with the Salmon in the US, BC and Alaska. There are too many species with too many different life cycles, habitats
etc. The ones that inhabit local areas are probably easiest to keep watch and count of. With improved fishing methods, as described by IflyfishPam,
the counts of many species are indeed a moving target.
There are however species that have indeed become extinct or near extinction due to over fishing and they appear below.
Harvesting methods in the Sea of Cortez are focus of criticism
By Mike Lee
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
March 8, 2005
The Gulf of California has been the subject of several studies, including one conducted last year by several Mexican scientists and Enric Sala,
associate director of the Center for Marine Biodiversity and Conservation at Scripps.
The report, published in Fisheries magazine, said the gulf has been "fished down" during the last 30 years as fisheries have shifted from larger,
long-lived species to smaller, short-lived species.
The researchers also found a decrease in the size of fish caught and concluded that it is generally harder to catch fish.
"These results suggest that coastal fisheries in the Gulf of California are unsustainable and their management needs to be re-evaluated with sound
regulatory measures to prevent further degradation of coastal food webs," the article said.
By drawing attention to the endangered California gulf porpoise, the council hopes to spur action for a complex web of environmental and social issues
in northern Mexico. It is targeting illegal fishing and catch-all shrimp harvesting techniques in a sea where Mexican scientists and the Scripps
Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla have documented a serious decline in the health of fisheries.
The spotted dolphin is considered the species most affected by tuna purseseining.
In Mexican waters the population of coastal spotted dolphins, a subspecies,
is estimated to be only 42 percent of its former size, while offshore spotted
dolphins are estimated to be only a fourth of their pre-exploitation numbers.
http://www.acsonline.org/factpack/SpottedDolphin.htm
The best approximation of vaquita abundance is from a comprehensive
survey done in 1997, which estimated the population at 500 to 600 hundred
individuals. This population estimate places the vaquita in the top twenty-five of the rarest mammals in the world. Vaquita are currently listed in
the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species as Critically Endangered.
http://www.vaquitamarina.org/english/index.html
The world's youngest sea, the Sea of Cortez was created when the East
Pacific Rise split the Baja Peninsula from Mexico starting ~5 million years ago. Itis home to 875 species of fish and 32 species of marine mammals,
all of which have been killed indiscriminately for years.
(SeaWiFS image courtesy of NASA)
Web Reference
http://www.seawatch.org/index.php
"The two most commonly caught "jumbo" shrimp of the Mexican fishery are
the brown shrimp, Penaeus californiensis (shown above), and the blue shrimp, Penaeus stylirostris. Shrimp are caught by otter trawls that are dragged
over the sea floor for miles scraping up sea life in their path. It is the most destructive method of commercial fishing in the world since the trawls
kill and waste millions of tons of marine animals, including the juveniles of several species of commercial fishes, especially the endangered
totoaba." Dr. Donald A. Thomson
http://eebweb.arizona.edu/marine/gulf_ca/ecology.htm
For generations, these fleets have trawled and netted for shrimp in the
shallow waters surrounding the Colorado River Delta, and even inside the Alto Golfo Biosphere Reserve which was protected in 1993. Despite the
presence of two endemic endangered species (the vaquita or Gulf of California harbor porpoise, Phocoena sinus, and the totoaba, Cynoscion macdonaldi,
a big sea bass), and laws protecting the area of the Biosphere Reserve dating back as far as 1955, the shrimp industry gradually lost control of
itself. The unrestrained, go-for-broke attitude of the Department of Fisheries resulted in disastrous over fishing, disruption of the fragile sea
bottom, and an incidental "by-catch" rate of about 95 percent. The entire Alto Golfo fishery, even including the fantastic original shrimp population,
became an economic and biological wasteland.
Only two years after the election of President Fox—and his choice of Victor
Lichtinger as his Secretary of Natural Resources—a new vision is emerging that sees Mexico's fish as a national patrimony, owned not by the fishermen,
but by the population at large. For the first time, fishing is being seen not as an inherent right, but as a privilege granted by all the people of
Mexico, to be exercised only on the condition that the resource is respected and preserved for future generations.
http://www.bajadestinations.com/afish/afish2002/afish021104/...
biology/oceanography Professor Donald A. Thomson, who has studied the Sea of Cortez since 1963. "But it'll eventually happen unless we do something
about it."
"We have seen very, very few sharks in the sea. Sharks are very rare," said Enric Sala, deputy director of the Center for Marine Biodiversity and
Conservation at the University of California in San Diego.
Sala estimates shark populations are down to 10 percent of what they were 50 years ago because of over fishing. Retired University of Arizona marine
biology/oceanography Professor Donald A. Thomson estimates turtle populations also are down to 10 percent of what their population once was. Thomson
has studied the Sea of Cortez since 1963.
A "dead zone" the size of Pennsylvania sits in the Gulf of Mexico because 65 percent of the lower 48 states drain their wastewater into the
Mississippi, Cousteau said.
Endangered species in the Sea of Cortez include:
Greater Black sea turtle
Hawksbill sea turtle
Giant Leatherback sea turtle
Olive Ridley sea turtle
Loggerhead sea turtle
Totoaba, fish that grows up to 6 feet and up to 300 pounds
Vaquita, one of five species of porpoise in the world
Humpback whale
Blue whale
Fish in danger of being overfished in the Sea of Cortez:
Mahi-mahi (also known as Dorado)
Swordfish
Marlin
Yellowtail
Sailfish
Manta ray
Of the 400 shark species in the world, about 150 live in the Sea of Cortez. At least eight are in danger of being killed off by shark fishing or
finning, or both including:
Hammerhead shark
Blue shark
Bull shark
Sand shark
Tiger shark
Mako shark
Great White shark
Thresher shark
*Source: Amigos del Mar de Cortes/Friends of the Sea of Cortez
Source: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/
Ilfyfish
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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Interesting info, Iflyfish.
A couple of years ago, at a public meeting in Loreto dealing with the then-proposed tourism development plan, a biologist from La Paz had a simpler
explanation of the data on the Sea of Cortez fisheries.
He simply said there is no data. None.
Endangered vaqueta, and no population estimates in 10 years? Deliberate. All deliberate. Conapesca does not want to know. And all the "biosphere" and
"marine park" window dressing is all compartmentalized in different agencies; Conapesca remains 100% devoted into liquidating Mexico's fish, and any
marine mammals or turtles that get in the way.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Don, what you report would not surprise me. Greed is a human trait, not one of our finest, but shared by all along with the other deadly six. I know
there was a time in my life when I wanted to catch till my back and arms hurt so bad that I could catch no more. I also want to eat the entire cake
and all the cookies too.
I once found a Native American fishing net that went from one shore to the other of a favorite stream where I fished for steelhead. Not a single fish
could have escaped had the net not been destroyed. This in the face of clear laws and common sense.
I guess that it often takes a crisis to get our attention. The alarm bells are ringing.
Iflyfsih
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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Can animals count?
... I asked my dad as a youngster.
Sure they can, was his response. Each animal has the ability to count to a certain number. A chicken, for example, can only count to 2.
How do you know that, I wanted to know.
Well, you can remove eggs from a chickens nest without any problems until you come down to the last two. After that, it begins to squawk and raise a
ruckus.
And that's the way it will be with the cortez fisheries.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Skipjack Joe, Your dad was a smart man. Your observation reflects the
fact that you inherited the trait.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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Why? Why? Why?
Did I on my recent trip fishing out of Mulege se 3/4 Mile of yellowtail Schools, millions of Bait Thousands of Fat Pelicans, Dolphins. Amberjack and
at least 10 Shark at about 400 Lbs. each.
The sharks were taken for Livers in the 40"s, for Food in the 60's and yet they are so abduant that they are again being taken.
could it be that the Research done , the conclusions Drawn in 1963 have proven to be invalid??
I think so!
It would be Great if some of these so called Scientist would take along some one with "Commom Sense" and do a year long study of the Sea of cortez.
You Birds cannot Ruin the Sea. Why? Because the fish leave and come back at different times!
Skeet/Loreto
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
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Location: on the bayou
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Skeet/Loreto, I was once advised to show more respect for my elders. But that
didn't include respecting stupidity.
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pargo
Nomad
Posts: 162
Registered: 9-14-2006
Location: Burbank Ca.
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Mood: Baja Nomas
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Don't do drugs but jus for the heck of it, let me get some of that Skeet. I'd like to live in that tele tubby world of yours for awhile
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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Why? Why? Why?
Did I on my recent trip fishing out of Mulege se 3/4 Mile of yellowtail Schools, millions of Bait Thousands of Fat Pelicans, Dolphins. Amberjack and
at least 10 Shark at about 400 Lbs. each.
The sharks were taken for Livers in the 40"s, for Food in the 60's and yet they are so abduant that they are again being taken.
could it be that the Research done , the conclusions Drawn in 1963 have proven to be invalid??
I think so!
It would be Great if some of these so called Scientist would take along some one with "Commom Sense" and do a year long study of the Sea of cortez.
You Birds cannot Ruin the Sea. Why? Because the fish leave and come back at different times!
Skeet/Loreto |
Skeet, the fishing has been dismal this year out of Mulege. Since I do a weekly report for Western Outdoor News and Mexfish, I am in constant
communication with fishermen in our area as well as the Mulege area. What you were fortunate enough to experience was a movement of migrating
yellowtail. Not to many years ago we had those movements going on all the time and you did not need to target an area since there were fish in almost
all areas of their migrational pattern. I have seen the same type of waves that you describe, but I have also seen times when I waited for a week
during very good tides for new fish to show. I am a more effective fisherman than I was 5 years ago but I find that I have to travel further and work
harder than at any time of catching yellowtail since the early 60's.
So you are correct, it is anything but a "Dead Sea" out there, but the destructive practice of hookah netting spawning fish is having a definite
effect on stocks. The big challenge is that it is hard to convince the mexican fisherman that stocks are dwindling because they are seeing the same
picture as Skeet. By the time that the yellowtail stocks dwindle to the same point as the totuava, then it may well be too late to ever recover.
But the real challenge seems to be what to do about it. I talk and share stories with the local fishermen but unless the law gets enforced they
are not about to significantly change their practices.
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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The fishermen full well know the stocks are dwindling, they simply refuse to believe it. No commercial fishermen will willingly limit their catch. If
they don't catch that "last one" someone else will.
Rules governing pounds caught and methods used has to be mandated by the Government of Mexico (fat chance) and "strictly" enforced.
I have limited experience in Baja, but I have seen the benefits of restrictions and limits in the North East U.S.A when enacted after "proven
scientific data" was amassed.
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Skeet and Pescador's discussion points to the limitations of using individual observation to make conclusions, particularly conclusions with such
drastic consequences. Scientific observation is much needed and quantifying numbers of fish stock is vital as pointed out by SkipJack.
There are lots of studies that demonstrate how observer bias scews data. I recall my time as a lab assistant in a Behavioral Lab, each student had a
rat to train in their Skinner box. You know, rat hits lever, gets pellet, hits lever, gets another pellet etc. Well, after the students trained their
rats to press the heck out of the bar and then trained them to stop hitting the bar they took a final. One of the questions was: What was your rat
thinking as it went through this training. You should have seen the pages produced. The real answer to the question of course is: Who knows, rats
don't talk and we can't read their minds!"
Iflyfish
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Skeet and Pescador's discussion points to the limitations of using individual observation to make conclusions, particularly conclusions with such
drastic consequences. Scientific observation is much needed and quantifying numbers of fish stock is vital as pointed out by SkipJack.
There are lots of studies that demonstrate how observer bias scews data. I recall my time as a lab assistant in a Behavioral Lab, each student had a
rat to train in their Skinner box. You know, rat hits lever, gets pellet, hits lever, gets another pellet etc. Well, after the students trained their
rats to press the heck out of the bar and then trained them to stop hitting the bar they took a final. One of the questions was: What was your rat
thinking as it went through this training. You should have seen the pages produced. The real answer to the question of course is: Who knows, rats
don't talk and we can't read their minds!"
Iflyfish |
The problem with the argument that scientific information is needed is that when none is available, the "default" position seems to be to continue
current practices. So those with a vested interest in those practices have an incentive to block funding for such studies.
Where fisheries data is available, often much of that data is the systematic collection of anecdotal evidence.
Another option for the Sea of Cortez would be to assume that the results of certain practices, such as trawling and gillnetting, would be similar to
the results where data was collected, or that ending such practices may have similar results to areas where such prohibitions have been enacted. Such
examples do exist.
Lack of scientific documentation should not prohibit common sense, or a broad consensus among user groups, and justify harmful practices.
Anyway, in the Loreto area the alleged "Marine Park" may be revising their management plan. Hopefully we'll get something better than no nets on odd
days of the month that fall on Tuesdays over rocky bottoms near this island but not that island unless you have a permit.
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Pompano
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8194
Registered: 11-14-2004
Location: Bay of Conception and Up North
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Mood: Optimistic
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The attitude by many commercial interests on netting in the Loreto and other Cortez areas reminds me of a certain 'in' question designed to help
students earn required philosophy credits in college.
Define truth and beauty.
Everyone wrote their earnest drivel as only sophmores can do...(we all had pipes in those days..and sometimes even smoked them.)
The professor said any answer would work, but his humor liked this answer:
Truth..the answer to the question is: I do not know.
The beauty is: I don't give a damn.
This is the prevalent answer in netting cabrilla, I expect.
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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The Sea of Cortez is done. How do you spell "history"? Everybody has memories.
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3747
Registered: 10-17-2006
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Popano and Don
Your points are well taken. Global warming is well documented. Yet there are those in power who would deny this and reguire more science. Testing,
counting fish etc. for the sake of the exercise is useless at best and an enabling act, perhaps. I know from my reading that there is a serious
problem in the Sea of Cortez and if nothing is done there will be many totouvas (irony intended).
Iflyfish
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
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Mood: optimistic
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Fish------
I don't know anybody who "denies" Global warming, either in power, or out of power----------what is causing it is the question, and what can be done
about it is probably a non-issue as most science that I know of admits that "man" can affect it very little, if at all.
As I am sure you realize many Climatologists think the we are headed into another Ice Age, and that this very real "global warming" is probably just a
blip in the long term trend of global cooling.
The political question is how much time and resources do we expend in attempting to do something that will most probably have little or no effect on
the outcome? If we implement what the advocates of "doing something" tell us, then there is a very real probability of ruining the global
economy---------is it worth it??? I personally don't think so.
Having said that, as a Capitolist, I am all for doing things that will clean up our air and environment as long as it does not preclude the stability
of the worlds advancing economy to a point of ruining what we (mankind) have achieved to date, or worse.
Barry
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
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I for one do not believe in the so-called "Global Warming"!!
I beleive in "Nature", I beleive in People and the People surrounding Global Wqrming leave much to be desired!
As some people gain wealth Hard work, many , will use their Abilities to instill Fear in to people to obtain the money. Example- The Current Political
Climate.
Having been on the Sea of Cortez for nearly 40 years I , as a Trained Investigator have qarthered and observed "Facts" .
Has the so-called Scientist observed "Where do the fish Go", then come back?? When the Sierra were taken, the yellowtail moved to other locsations, Is
that not Nature?
When the Longliners covered the Sea Mouth, How and why did the fish come Back??
If I only observed a single Happening on my recent visit, What of those happenings that were not Observed by anyone?
I am starting to see that many of the Posters do not have any "Faith" in Nature.It seems as if it is an Afflication of the Generation in that they are
awaiting for the next "Preacher of Doom" to send their money Too!
Have Faith!
And by the Way after next Tuesday I am going to have 20 years added to my Life, so you Naysayers can get ready for "Ole Skeet" to give you Hell about
the Great Sea of cortez/
Having a Double Heart Bypass and the doctor told me it would add another 20 to my already Good Life.
So be ready to Prove your Words, I will only speak of Facts. Might even come back and spend a Year on the Cortez.
Skeet/Loreto
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Ken Bondy
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3326
Registered: 12-13-2002
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Good luck in your operation Skeet!
++Ken++
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