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BajaOkie
Junior Nomad
Posts: 68
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
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Skipjack,
I have followed this for a few days now and I think you miss the real situation here. These sites may never be protected and they should be viewed
and experienced by as many people as possible. The more folks that can relate to the history contained may help in the future preservation you are
advocating.
Keeping some/many/all of these sites off limits may not help them to ever be protected. I have come across sites which have been plowed over and
dozed but done by lack of information by the local owner. I believe in Baja that more interest and visitation is a win win in that all are educated
as to the importance of such sites.
Just my two cents.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Goat,
I believe I know what the Mexicans would say. They've already set up guided tours of these masterpieces for the public to see: UNDER SUPERVISION.
It's true that the website DK is touting has the cave paintings. But the images are not there for the tourist to visit them. They are being touted for
the tourist to come to their ranch and be shown UNDER SUPERVISION. I have met and spoken to the people who run Piedra Blanca Ranch. They won't tell
you where the paintings are because they don't trust you. That's responsible behavior, DK. Get it?
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Skipjack,
I have followed this for a few days now and I think you miss the real situation here. These sites may never be protected and they should be viewed
and experienced by as many people as possible. The more folks that can relate to the history contained may help in the future preservation you are
advocating.
Keeping some/many/all of these sites off limits may not help them to ever be protected. I have come across sites which have been plowed over and
dozed but done by lack of information by the local owner. I believe in Baja that more interest and visitation is a win win in that all are educated
as to the importance of such sites.
Just my two cents. |
Sure, I'll accept that not all sites will be protected.
But, Mark my Words, the site I visited and that DK is now promoting, will be protected. I can guarantee that. And if you saw it you would agree.
Promoting this site is an act of terrorism in my view.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Goat,
I believe I know what the Mexicans would say. They've already set up guided tours of these masterpieces for the public to see: UNDER SUPERVISION.
It's true that the website DK is touting has the cave paintings. But the images are not there for the tourist to visit them. They are being touted for
the tourist to come to their ranch and be shown UNDER SUPERVISION. I have met and spoken to the people who run Piedra Blanca Ranch. They won't tell
you where the paintings are because they don't trust you. That's responsible behavior, DK. Get it? |
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine. However, sites in National Parks under "strict supervision" (or as best as happens) are vandalized too------it happens-------and I
believe that it happens more in the Parks to "protected" sites than it does in the "un-supervised" sites----but then that is just my experience and
opinion over 30 years of trying to protect them. Get it??
You are a stubborn rigid person, SkipJack. 
Barry
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaOkie
Skipjack,
I have followed this for a few days now and I think you miss the real situation here. These sites may never be protected and they should be viewed
and experienced by as many people as possible. The more folks that can relate to the history contained may help in the future preservation you are
advocating.
Keeping some/many/all of these sites off limits may not help them to ever be protected. I have come across sites which have been plowed over and
dozed but done by lack of information by the local owner. I believe in Baja that more interest and visitation is a win win in that all are educated
as to the importance of such sites.
Just my two cents. |
Sure, I'll accept that not all sites will be protected.
But, Mark my Words, the site I visited and that DK is now promoting, will be protected. I can guarantee that. And if you saw it you would agree.
Promoting this site is an act of terrorism in my view. |
I am not promoting it any more than they are, and I 'promote' it for education about Baja, not to make money off it... I just showed photos. I didn't
say where it was on Nomad, just near El Arco... another person said the name of the place after. Why are my photos any different than yours or anyone
else's published of the site?
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine.
Barry |
Certainly not always the case. I think many underestimate how many locals there are who really not only appreciate the antiquities of their country
and want to protect them.
Just one example. There is a rancher in the mountains near Abreojos who led some friends of ours to some unknown cave paintings and not for any kind
of fee. They are researchers who are a combination of gringo and Mexican and he trusted them. They were there for other research and knew nothing
about these paintings --- and they nor the researches are telling where they are located.
It is not always about the money.
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DianaT
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine.
Barry |
Certainly not always the case. I think many underestimate how many locals there are who really not only appreciate the antiquities of their country
and want to protect them.
Just one example. There is a rancher in the mountains near Abreojos who led some friends of ours to some unknown cave paintings and not for any kind
of fee. They are researchers who are a combination of gringo and Mexican and he trusted them. They were there for other research and knew nothing
about these paintings --- and they nor the researches are telling where they are located.
It is not always about the money. |
They were academics who were studying plants in the biosphere is why . They do not want tourists at this site.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I happen to believe that sharing with Baja Nomads is going to reach the most 'quality' Baja travelers there are... |
Really? This is a forum with thousands of members and it is an open forum that anyone can read. "The most 'quality' Baja travelers" Quality is
rather nebulous and very subjective.
We have met many Nomads who we think are really good people, and we have met others who are real jerks, others who don't give a rip about the
environment, the people or the country.
We have met many NON Nomads who we think are really good people, and we have met others who are real jerks, others who don't give a rip about the
environment, the people or the country.
It is a mystery as to why anyone would think there is something special about some one who signed up for this forum. There are members who are quite
shady; and again non-members who are quite shady.
It is a good forum, a very useful forum, and usually a well run forum. It is a place to exchange information, to promote businesses, to meet people
who share the same interests. However, just how does being a member qualify one for being a "quality" traveler, whatever that means.
I believe that Igor and Barry both make some very valid points. DK, you will continue to do what you think is OK for your own reasons, and you are
sharing it with thousands of people.
And all of this is my subjective opinion --- except the part about there being thousands of members and an open forum. It is also wide open for
distortion. 
[Edited on 1-9-2013 by DianaT]
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
Member Is Offline
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Shady Nomads, tell me it ain't so.
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
Shady Nomads, tell me it ain't so.
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Now be fair --- Shady Nomads and Shady NON nomads.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine. However, sites in National Parks under "strict supervision" (or as best as happens) are vandalized too------it
happens-------and I believe that it happens more in the Parks to "protected" sites than it does in the "un-supervised" sites----but
then that is just my experience and opinion over 30 years of trying to protect them. Get it??
You are a stubborn rigid person, SkipJack.
Barry |
"It happens" - so you're solution was to do nothing and let it happen. That was the conclusion of your research? That's what you're advocating. You've
stated it clearly.
Then you state the 30 years of "trying" to protect them. I'm glad you used the word trying because your conclusion is that it wasn't worth it. My
conclusion is that you were the custodian of antiquities which you felt shouldn't be protected because they can't be.
And then you come here and offer the same advice based "upon 30 years of experience". Well, I don't care how many years of experience you have.
Al Gore has a Nobel Prize. Does that affect your judgment? I don't even have to ask.
[Edited on 1-9-2013 by Skipjack Joe]
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Goat,
I believe I know what the Mexicans would say. They've already set up guided tours of these masterpieces for the public to see: UNDER SUPERVISION.
It's true that the website DK is touting has the cave paintings. But the images are not there for the tourist to visit them. They are being touted for
the tourist to come to their ranch and be shown UNDER SUPERVISION. I have met and spoken to the people who run Piedra Blanca Ranch. They won't tell
you where the paintings are because they don't trust you. That's responsible behavior, DK. Get it? |
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine. However, sites in National Parks under "strict supervision" (or as best as happens) are vandalized too------it happens-------and I
believe that it happens more in the Parks to "protected" sites than it does in the "un-supervised" sites----but then that is just my experience and
opinion over 30 years of trying to protect them. Get it??
You are a stubborn rigid person, SkipJack.
Barry |
Failing to accomplish what you were paid and trusted to do over 30 years hardly makes you an expert!
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Goat,
I believe I know what the Mexicans would say. They've already set up guided tours of these masterpieces for the public to see: UNDER SUPERVISION.
It's true that the website DK is touting has the cave paintings. But the images are not there for the tourist to visit them. They are being touted for
the tourist to come to their ranch and be shown UNDER SUPERVISION. I have met and spoken to the people who run Piedra Blanca Ranch. They won't tell
you where the paintings are because they don't trust you. That's responsible behavior, DK. Get it? |
----Here is a thought----"they won't tell you where the paintings are-------" because, duh, they want to take you there to see them (for a fee) and
that is just fine. However, sites in National Parks under "strict supervision" (or as best as happens) are vandalized too------it happens-------and I
believe that it happens more in the Parks to "protected" sites than it does in the "un-supervised" sites----but then that is just my experience and
opinion over 30 years of trying to protect them. Get it??
You are a stubborn rigid person, SkipJack.
Barry |
Failing to accomplish what you were paid and trusted to do over 30 years hardly makes you an expert! |
Incredible!!!!
Barry
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tripledigitken
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4848
Registered: 9-27-2006
Member Is Offline
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Barry,
Sorry this thread has sunk to the level of summarizing someone's entire 30 year career as a failure over a difference of opinion.
Ken
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rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
Barry,
Sorry this thread has sunk to the level of summarizing someone's entire 30 year career as a failure over a difference of opinion.
Ken |
Your right, Sorry...But he did say it did not work and BLM is chartered with protecting resources.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rts551
| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
Barry,
Sorry this thread has sunk to the level of summarizing someone's entire 30 year career as a failure over a difference of opinion.
Ken |
Your right, Sorry...But he did say it did not work and BLM is chartered with protecting resources. |
Thanks, Ken---it was a little rattling to hear somebody dismiss me that way.
RTS--------You are right, but the BLM and the National Park Service are also MANDATED to "provide for the enjoyment of the people" of those
resources..-----which often is a real challenge, and that was my assignment---to strike a balance between those two mandates.
Barry
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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So it was a judgment call. Your judgment.
DK uses your 30 years of experience because your opinion that it's futile to protect archeological sites matches his desire to promote them.
Wonderful.
I'll bet that if I ask 30 random archeologist none of them would share your values.
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tripledigitken
Barry,
Sorry this thread has sunk to the level of summarizing someone's entire 30 year career as a failure over a difference of opinion.
Ken |
I don't think that's fair Ken. Nobody is citing Barry as a failure or his career. My main objection is citing someone as an authority because he
shares your values. You have been here long enough to know that this is not the first time. During the Sharksbaja broohaha several years ago DK again
supported himself by stating the Barry was an authority on desert biology as well.
In all the years I have been here I don't think Barry has disagreed with anything David has stated. This is on every subject matter.
As I stated earlier. Stop using crutches. Using Barry's expertise, books, or the professed opinions of others have little to do with the matter. It's
not a popularity contest.
The question is simple:
Are you or are you not indirectly promoting vandalism by exposing unprotected archeological treasures.
To me the answer is a nobrainer.
I don't need to have Barry tell me that it doesn't matter. To me, and others here, it matters.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
So it was a judgment call. Your judgment.
DK uses your 30 years of experience because your opinion that it's futile to protect archeological sites matches his desire to promote them.
Wonderful.
I'll bet that if I ask 30 random archeologist none of them would share your values. |
You are interpreting and making judgements about what I said, only citing those comments I made that support your preconceived ideas, some quotes of
which are out of context. This is NOT a competition between us, but you seem to think it is, otherwise why would you attempt to discredit me?? I
would not have even posted unless I felt that I had something to contribute, based on my experiences and training, which seemed relevant to me.
Absolutely it was a "judgement call"------that's what the NPS and BLM assigned me to do--make judgements based on my experience in Law Enforcement,
both inside and outside the Resources type of LE, as THAT was my only area of any possible "expertise" in this matter, and the Bureau's had few that
were experienced in all types of LE. They were hoping for a fresh approach, and some were happy with my recommendations and others were not. (duh)
I went from GS-5 to GS-12 within 14 years, so must have been doing something right, and providing some value. You seem to see it
differently----"Failing to accomplish what you were paid and trusted to do over 30 years hardly makes you an expert! ". Nice---------!!!!
Most Archaeologists did not agree with me, you are right, but some did-------they were/are "Archaeologists", not "LE" people-----they were "experts"
in Archaeology, not Law Enforcement----and they had not been very successful at protecting Archy sites using their ideas, and wanted a fresh
approach----thus they brought me in, as well as a few others over the years. The controversy continues, as does the destruction and vandalism.
All this is, of course, simply my ideas, not gospel---------I may be wrong, but I gave it my best, and continue to, as that is what they asked for. I
have seen nothing over the years that changes my original ideas on this matter, so therefore think I am on the right track.
David K has his ideas of how things are, and naturally he would support those that agree with him, and vice-versa---don't we all? He does not ask for
that support, I contribute it when I think if is warranted. And yes, I can't remember David saying anything that I substantially disagree with-----he
may emphathise some things differently than I would, but so what? His information and knowledge are the only things that I care about, so yes, I do
support him when I see others bashing him for what appears to me to be petty differences and objections to his style and personality and political
beliefs. I often think "what is wrong with those people" that bash him visciously----------I don't understand that type of behavior, and I certainly
don't find it objectionable that he defends himself----quite the contrary.
As always, you can take me seriously, or just dismiss it------your choice. Most do that, thank Zeus.
Barry
[Edited on 1-9-2013 by Barry A.]
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salttram
Junior Nomad
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-17-2003
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Well, I don't have them all pinpointed on Google Earth or even GPS'd, so relax. Do you really think there are teenagers with spray paint in Ensenada,
reading Baja Nomad and looking on Google Earth for places they can drive hundreds of kilometers to, in order to spray paint them, really?
Anyway, it is true that they are already preserved if they are photographed, and we can only hope they will remain visible for people (like us) to see
them where they were made. Denying the people who love Baja from seeing them before they are lost by not saying where they are here (or in books) is
selfish IMO. What makes you or me better than anyone else that only we can enjoy them? |
I take David K at his word and I believe that he wants to encourage Nomads to explore Baja and share the wonders with friends who would (hopefully)
have a spirit of preservation. It just troubles me a little bit when he states that a unique, world-class archaeological treasure "is preserved" when
it is photographed. OK, more than a little bit.
When there are only photographic, literary and taxidermic representations of tigers, the tiger is not preserved; it is gone - most likely for good.
It's absurd to say that a representation of something is a "preserved" something.
Fortunately, I don't think David K is the type of person to get peeed at us and post detailed directions just to spite us, even though some of us have
been a little hard on him (maybe).
Near the beginning of this thread, David K posted some nice pics of a Great Mural site. Those of us familiar with this site know how close it is to a
major road and how accessible it is. So much so that INAH took the care to place a sign in the cave that says, in effect, "This is your heritage -
Protect it.", basically ceding the responsibility of "protection" to those of us who, like me, stumbled upon it by accident and read the sign.
There are much lesser sites in the Sierra San Francisco that are behind locked gates. If this site were in the US or Europe, it would be protected
even more. When I spoke with Harry Crosby last year, he said he was surprised that he missed it during his surveys and that it escaped inclusion in
both of his excellent books on the subject. He didn't say as much, but I think he deliberately left it out and was clearly concerned about its
preservation. If you mention the name of the land-form where it is located, and have a detailed map, you will find this mural. Anyone who has seen it
in person should consider it laughable that any photograph could even come close to the experience of standing in that cave. Which is why I find David
K's assertion so perplexing. Maybe we saw and felt different things.
Maybe now would be the time to revisit the law that the Mexican government has on the books regarding such things. Under Mexican law, it is illegal to
approach, visit, photograph or otherwise document archaeological sites without a permit (obtained in advance) AND guide registered with INAH. We may
all take-lightly the proscriptions of an overstretched and compromised entity as the Mexican government . . . but I like to think that they have good
reasons for some of their laws.
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