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Woooosh
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Location: Rosarito Beach
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Great post LookingandBuying. The lack "completion bonds" in Mexico is a biggie too when talking about new condo projects you may be thinking of
buying into. If the developer only has to depend on the next persons deposit to deliver the previous persons unit- what happens when the flow of cash
stops? Nothing good.
The chain of title topic is very important. I do not know what that document would look like on Federal Zone. Once SEMARNAT gives you a Federal 15
year title to the Federal Zone, I would think that is solid. But what happens in the time between? The time between when the private land title is
no longer valid because the federal zone has moved behind it? I would think the private land title holder would have first dibbs on the Federal Title
if they were to apply for it in time. If they were not to apply and another person did, once that Federal Title is granted I would think the original
private land title holder is then out of luck. There is also the huge unknown of when a cliff or 20 degree slope is involved for some reason.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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ramuma53
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Concerning the issue of need to have a title that takes land out of National Land, to have private property in Mexico.
Just go to the Mexican constitution, article 27 main text, it says that ´all land inside the Mexico borders are by origin National Land´
That mean that all land start as National Land, then you have to have a national Land title to take it out, for the first time, so you always have to
have a National land title as first document in the Title chain; the problem in Baja is that that simple issue is not always true, they have old
titles that violate the law as precedent and the law says that Private property to exist, have to have a legally issued tile as precedent, not just
any title, a legally issued title and that mean a tile issued obeying the laws operating at the time the title was issued.
In the Rosarito area, the titles that supposedly support the private property there, were issued in an illegal way, violating the law operating at
that time, mostly because the 1863 ordered that private property was limited to Mexican living in Mexico, with an area less than 2500 Hectares while
the title issued by the dictator Porfirio Diaz, had an area of 19,300 Has, clearly several times the amount allowed by law, also the title was issued
to an American citizen living in San Francisco California USA.
That mean, that that land has never came out of national land dominium through a legally issued title and that mean that that land is at this time
National Land while national land is not subjected to status of limitation or any time limit and that mean, that you cannot own national land by
simply possessing it.
The Punta Banda problem exploded, because when the USA Consulate in Tijuana consulted me, they did not believed me, that the problem will end in a
National land title victory in courts, they followed the Then Governor advice that there would be no problem and the base legal fact was that that
land was national land declared national land by the 1952 national land presidential proclamation and that proclamation also affect all the Rosarito
area, it is the same problem, not just similar.
Because of the Punta Banda´s problem, the Reforma Agraria secretary ordered the area brought to legality and sent an official expert team to correct
it, named ´Comision Deslindadora y Regularizadora de Terrenos Nacionales en las Bajas Californias´ to do the actual job in 1992, but the Baja Governor
moved by Hugo Torres Chavert, objected the work of that commission because he wanted to protect all the Rosarito developers, he objected to the
Mexico´s President and the President just allowed him to hang himself for being the first Pan Governor.
Since then, the Baja Estate government has been trying to promote the belief that the old titles are right, actually allowing the unlawfulness to
continue and allowing the Baja developers to build on National Land without a lawful title.
This has to end sooner or later to be able to issue legal titles and then allow the developers to give legal title chain to buyers.
They played the ignorance and time card, wishing that time would make things right or having created a very big problem to the federal government, the
Federal government would just correct things without legal noise, but legal problems have erupted time and time again because of this lack of legality
and I mean Playa Encantada, Castillos del Mar, Rancho costa Azul, CFE, Venustiano Carranza, Popotla, El Campito, El Oasis, the Trump towers.
That mean, that at this time, the Federal Government is studying the possibility to send again the original commission to do the job that Ruffo
stopped almost 20 years ago and when that happen, all the developers will have to pay the National Land price at $100 dlls/m2 to have a legal title
but that will be the end of the problem.
Of course Hugo Torres Chaver advocates will do every dirty trick to try to stop it, because even the Hotel Rosarito is in National land.
Who has legal title in that area?
Venustiano Carranza, Playa Encantada (Not the 3 Hugo Torres Chavert towers, the real owners), Castillos del Mar, the El Morro strip and a couple in
Playas de Tijuana and that is it.
Will this legal battle continue? Yes, it is going on at this time in Mexico City courts.
Who will win? Just see the Punta Banda precedent, National Land has been winning every time and one of the last examples is the Playas de Tijuana area
loss by the Estate government against national lad titles, even against national land possessors the Estate government lost.
Mexican land owners know about this problem going on in courts and in administrative courts but they hide it to customers and that is not right.
We would not want a Rosarito whole area becoming a huge Punta Banda problem for Mexico, we do not want Americans to lose their houses and the only way
to do that is by advising American customers to not get involved in those legal battles going on and more if they do not know.
Concerning Federal Zone
The law says that Federal Zone only exist when the coast has a beach and the solid ground beside the beach has a less than 30 degrees slope, if those
facts do not concurr, Federal Zone does not exist, even if Federal Zone guys and Rosarito City officials try to hide it, just because those Federal
Zone charges are 25% of the city income.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
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Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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Once again thank you...
and just waiting for the "new" how to buy real estate in Mexico.. which will be coming out very soon... I would guess
great job, thanks to many.....
[Edited on 3-13-2011 by wessongroup]
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krafty
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Registered: 8-23-2010
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our deal down here is a 100 year lease, with 63 left on it. The folks that are lucky enough to have some property in the fed. zone are billed
accordingly every year, and apparently it has not been a problem for 30 years. Don't know if NEED is the word for an FM whatever-we have a 30 year
resident who decided it was unnecessary and has not dealt with it for a decade. We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with
someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in
our little community
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lookingandbuying
Nomad
Posts: 102
Registered: 3-15-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by krafty
our deal down here is a 100 year lease, with 63 left on it. The folks that are lucky enough to have some property in the fed. zone are billed
accordingly every year, and apparently it has not been a problem for 30 years. Don't know if NEED is the word for an FM whatever-we have a 30 year
resident who decided it was unnecessary and has not dealt with it for a decade. We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with
someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in
our little community |
Krafty,
I had always thought any lease over
exactly 10 years was illegal in Mexico.
Maybe I am not understanding what
you are saying your terms are?
Any additional details or information?
Thanks!!
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3147
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lookingandbuying
| Quote: | Originally posted by krafty
our deal down here is a 100 year lease, with 63 left on it. The folks that are lucky enough to have some property in the fed. zone are billed
accordingly every year, and apparently it has not been a problem for 30 years. Don't know if NEED is the word for an FM whatever-we have a 30 year
resident who decided it was unnecessary and has not dealt with it for a decade. We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with
someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in
our little community |
Krafty,
I had always thought any lease over
exactly 10 years was illegal in Mexico.
Maybe I am not understanding what
you are saying your terms are?
Any additional details or information?
Thanks!! |
lookingandbuying
You are almost correct (if I am not mistaken) with the 10-year limit on land leases in Mexico. It is my understanding that leases here are limited to
one day less than 10 years. If I had a doubt about it, I'd ask ramura, he seems to know a lot about the subject. Or, maybe not. I wouldn't want to
know that my 100 year lease was worthless in court on the 10th anniversary of the lease. I'd go with the "ignorance is bliss" mentality and hope that
it's true that "God protects drunks and fools."
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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Is there something wrong with this picture? A 100 yr. lease that doesn't exist, yet is paid for? Leases are only good for 10 yrs.? And no one really
knows for sure? "Uncertain" seems to be the operative word. Why? Surely someone knows?
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krafty
Super Nomad
Posts: 1052
Registered: 8-23-2010
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We are one of about 4 communities in MX that has this IRONCLAD arrangement and there are folks here that have lived here for 30 years-it was
originally designated as a "beach club"
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
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Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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krafty, Thanks. Four communities in all of Mexico? IRONCLAD? Interesting.
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lookingandbuying
Nomad
Posts: 102
Registered: 3-15-2010
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Things just workout??
| Quote: | Originally posted by krafty
We are one of about 4 communities in MX that has this IRONCLAD arrangement and there are folks here that have lived here for 30 years-it was
originally designated as a "beach club" |
While I don't know about anything being "IRONCLAD" in Mexico, I hope things workout for you and that you or someone you know gets to enjoy the
remaining 63 years you think you have.
This is the type of thing that I chalk up in Mexico to "if it works don't mess with it". And also to enjoy each day there as much as possible as you
have rights you think you had until you don't. I suppose if someone is making money off this deal and they are happy with the amount they are
receiving then things will bump along as is. As always, never invest/spend more on a place in Mexico than you can afford to lose.
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mcfez
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8678
Registered: 12-2-2009
Location: aka BN yankeeirishman
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IRONCLAD?
Ed Tabor's Flying Sportsmen Lodge thought the same down in Loreto. Opened somewhere in the early 50's and lost the land in property disputes...in 1982
Though we have investments in Baja.....It's stuff that I can afford to loose.
......."leases here are limited to one day less than 10 years. True.
[Edited on 3-13-2011 by mcfez]
Old people are like the old cars, made of some tough stuff. May show a little rust, but good as gold on the inside.
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krafty
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Registered: 8-23-2010
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Think what y'all want-the owner of the land knows he cannot and will not mess with us-he also has several relatives that live in this community...we
are about 60 casas here, mixed MX and Gringos, with a couple of Argentinians, spaniards, and hungarian thrown in for good luck
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Woooosh
Banned
Posts: 5240
Registered: 1-28-2007
Location: Rosarito Beach
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Mood: Luminescent Waves at Rosarito Beach
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The most interesting part of this discussion to me is how recent these legal decisions on land titles are. The Rosarito national lands issue is as
recent as 1992 and as yet unresolved? YIKES. I don't think any owners or potential buyers know these legal events are still fluid and that Torres
had been blocking and stalling the legal process to his benefit. I don't think anyone would buy down here knowing that they might not be buying
anything. If someone with more legal knowledge can file some legal papers and take your property- what did you buy?
The 100 year lease topic is dangerous. Anyone reading this thread could file the correct papers for that area and it would more legally be theirs
than yours. That's more than a bit unsettling. It is a hard game to win if you don't have access to the correct information, and most expats don't.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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lookingandbuying
Nomad
Posts: 102
Registered: 3-15-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
The most interesting part of this discussion to me is how recent these legal decisions on land titles are. The Rosarito national lands issue is as
recent as 1992 and as yet unresolved? YIKES. I don't think any owners or potential buyers know these legal events are still fluid and that Torres
had been blocking and stalling the legal process to his benefit. I don't think anyone would buy down here knowing that they might not be buying
anything. If someone with more legal knowledge can file some legal papers and take your property- what did you buy?
The 100 year lease topic is dangerous. Anyone reading this thread could file the correct papers for that area and it would more legally be theirs
than yours. That's more than a bit unsettling. It is a hard game to win if you don't have access to the correct information, and most expats don't.
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Woooosh,
Agree, it is taking a lot of time, but, when you think about how much time it takes for legal cases to weave their way through the process here all
the way to the U.S. Supreme Court it should not be that surprising to us that things do take time in Mexico too. I mean here you can be a young man
when the legal process starts and be very old and grey haired by the time a decision is handed down from our highest courts in the land.
The one thing we do have to keep in mind is that things are much much cheaper as a result of all the confusion and misinformation. So in some
circumstances it is helpful. And like our friend Krafty above who has a 100 year lease with 63 years remaining  it's working for him at the moment. So it's all good until it's not!!
So with all this happening I think I read on one of your posts that you have a 4000 sq ft place across the street from the ocean where you have a
concession in front? How do you handle these property title issues? I know you are currently going through a battle regarding the concession
property but how do you hold title to the house? Just wondering as you certainly seem to be fully aware of all the issues so want to know how you
have done a work around that works for you.
One last comment and this is more in response to Rumanna53. He keeps saying the developers are going to have a big problem once this National Land
title issue gets sorted out. I would think that the developers are long gone and that the current owner's of a house or condo are going to be the
ones that suffer the hurt? It would seem that if the NAtional Title problem/issue is true that a big assessment would be coming from the current
owner's of these places, possibly. He has also mentioned a price per sq meter or sq something or other that people would need to pay to finally
obtain a proper transfer out of the National Lands. I was wondering what this amounts to per sq foot of land?? Any idea?
It is just a real shame that this is going on. It truly hurts the locals as a result of diminished business activity. The interesting thing is even
with all this uncertainty which has been around for a long long time people still buy and sell places all the time. Been going on for years.
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3147
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Is there something wrong with this picture? A 100 yr. lease that doesn't exist, yet is paid for? Leases are only good for 10 yrs.? And no one really
knows for sure? "Uncertain" seems to be the operative word. Why? Surely someone knows? |
Actually, I'm quite certain of my claim that leases on land are only valid for one day less than ten years, I'm just a polite guy who tries to not
sound arrogant.
Now, that doesn't mean that my information is correct--just that I'm damn certain it is!
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3147
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by krafty
Think what y'all want-the owner of the land knows he cannot and will not mess with us-he also has several relatives that live in this community...we
are about 60 casas here, mixed MX and Gringos, with a couple of Argentinians, spaniards, and hungarian thrown in for good luck |
Hey, now that's the attitude! I'm sure the owner will be real intimidated.
So there were at least 60 people from various nationalities who signed these 100 year leases? All of them? Really? Hard to believe there could be so
much "innocence" in one place, to put it politely. Did you mention where this place is? There is money to be made there...
But on a serious note: perhaps the current owner is a swell upstanding sort of guy and never, ever violates the spirit of the lease. Can you say the
same for his kids, and their kids?
All it would take to turn your land over to them is a court challenge of the legality of the lease after the initial ten years are up. And it doesn't
really matter what any of us think, what matters in this case is what the law says and how a judge interprets it.
It is good that you brought this up, in case others are considering the same. These long-term leases were once quite popular, in the days before the
fideicomisos offered foreigners some sort of guarantees beyond nine years and 364.24 days.
[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Bajatripper]
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lookingandbuying
He has also mentioned a price per sq meter or sq something or other that people would need to pay to finally obtain a proper transfer out of the
National Lands. I was wondering what this amounts to per sq foot of land?? Any idea?
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The price he quoted was $100 per sq meter. I'm assuming he meant 1,000 pesos. 1 sq meter is 10.764 sq ft.
I, too, am not worried much about the title dispute. I expect whatever land I have left to be sold before the caca meets the fan. Last liar
doesn't stand a chance.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by krafty
We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe
as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in our little community |
Repeatedly? Sounds like a fractious place to live. I've been down here a long time and have never seen this happen.......not that it can't.
Where are you located, krafty? Just curious.
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3147
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
1) Do not look ever for legal advice from a 'lawyer' posting on a forum.
2) A certain nomad along who participated in this thread shares equal responsibility for this promotion. |
I am just curious gnukid, specifically what has he stated in this thread that you dispute and what facts do you have to back that up???
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I'm with you Gringo. If there is one thing ramuma seems to know a lot about, it is the legal issues involving land acquisition in Mexico. To look a
gift horse like that in the mouth seems to be the foolish act in this case.
Regardless of how you might feel about the man based on the turtle soup thread, he is a valuable resource on this thread and some have said they've
already benefitted from his advice. Nuff said.
[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Bajatripper]
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Gypsy Jan
Ultra Nomad
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Mood: Depends on which way the wind is blowing
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I Think That Jesse is Correct and He Has Been Edited
Just my humble opinion.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow mindedness.”
—Mark Twain
\"La vida es dura, el corazon es puro, y cantamos hasta la madrugada.” (Life is hard, the heart is pure and we sing until dawn.)
—Kirsty MacColl, Mambo de la Luna
\"Alea iacta est.\"
—Julius Caesar
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