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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
Not a clue why one would have these responses to Mr. Munoz’s submission to official documentation, which in fact prove his position, at this time.
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A. Mr Munoz publicly accuses Marc and Olivia of drug trafficking and destruction of endangered animals.
B. Mr Munoz provides documents of his real estate ownership as some sort of proof in his case.
What does one have to do with other?
Are we to conclude that because M&O lost their land dispute (if they did) with Mr Munoz they are also guilty of the above crimes?
What documentation are you looking for M&O to provide?
Shouldn't the accuser provide documentation for the crime he's accusing? And not the other way around?
I have to admit that my initial reaction to the display of official documents were "What on earth ...?". But apparently a couple of nomads found them
to be pertinent to this case. The only thing they show, in my opinion, is that there is a verry strong likelihood that Mr Munoz has alterior motives
that the criminal accusations of M&O stick.
I have no legal background, but aren't those documents the sort of thing a judge would forbid as inadmissable evidence in a court of law because they
have nothing to do with the case in hand and tend to bias the jury? Isn't that in fact what Mr Munoz is trying to do with the reader?
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
So, because you don't have any better evidence against them, you bring up the turtle story (again) hoping to get sympathy from the tree huggers
(greenies) here.
Olivia told me what happened and she (in person) is far more believable than you (on the Internet). Do you think someone being so harassed te way you
are harassing them would take a chance at breaking the law?
Allowing a Mexican family to use her kitchen for their big event is the kind hearted action of this lady. Do you also go around to other places (like
Comondu) and turn in other families cooking turtle (beacause you have nothing else to do)?
If it is turtle crime you hope to stop, then leave... they have been arrested and released for allowing (without knowledge) someone else to cook their
fiesta turtle meal. |
David K.,
Your first paragraph is the type of political bias that poisons so many of your otherwise poignant posts. Why do you find it necessary to do this?
Are "tree huggers (greenies)" the only ones that are concerned about the welfare of turtles? What about you? What is you attitude in regards to the
welfare of turtles?
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
So, because you don't have any better evidence against them, you bring up the turtle story (again) hoping to get sympathy from the tree huggers
(greenies) here.
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you don't have to be "green" to be for saving endangered species. DK: why do you want to eat turtles?
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Olivia told me what happened and she (in person) is far more believable than you (on the Internet). |
hopefully, the courts will not decide innocence/guilt on basis of who DK likes.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Allowing a Mexican family to use her kitchen for their big event is the kind hearted action of this lady. Do you also go around to other places (like
Comondu) and turn in other families cooking turtle (beacause you have nothing else to do)?
If it is turtle crime you hope to stop, then leave... they have been arrested and released for allowing (without knowledge) someone else to cook their
fiesta turtle meal. |
i find it bvery hard to believe that owners or emplyees were unaware of turtle stew being cooked in restaurant. it seems to be a stretch to believe
that hotel owners or emplyees were unaware about the crime going down in the kitchen. seems very convenient excuse to blame things on guests,...
would you want to be guest if you were made scape goat?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore
uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).
Turtles are animals and most humans eat animals. Sad perhaps, but a fact of life. Once the turtles have rebounded from near extinction, they will
again be enjoyed by locals and fine eating places, as they were when I was a kid traveling in Baja.
I don't remember if I tasted any back in 1967 at Diaz' in Bahia de los Angeles (I don't think so, as I was fussy about food), but it was a big event
when Cruz made her turtle meals. I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.
Totuava is another 'endangered' species, but is still caught and eaten... If someone is hungry, I think they will chose their life over an animal's.
God (Nature) provides these things afterall... It would probably really upset you to go to the Orient and see the kinds of things people eat there!
Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents... Is it only okay to eat tuna because there are still
lots of them? Who's to say when a food source must end or if it is 'natural' to eat them until they are all gone. Does a snake stop eating mice when
he has a harder time finding them as they become fewer where he hunts?
Have a great day and think logically instead of emotionally, for a change!
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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Well, there you have it!
DK,
As Elinvestig8 says: "Thank you for your reply".
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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My pleasure... Have a great day Tony!
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore
uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).
Turtles are animals and most humans eat animals. Sad perhaps, but a fact of life. Once the turtles have rebounded from near extinction, they will
again be enjoyed by locals and fine eating places, as they were when I was a kid traveling in Baja.
I don't remember if I tasted any back in 1967 at Diaz' in Bahia de los Angeles (I don't think so, as I was fussy about food), but it was a big event
when Cruz made her turtle meals. I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.
Totuava is another 'endangered' species, but is still caught and eaten... If someone is hungry, I think they will chose their life over an animal's.
God (Nature) provides these things afterall... It would probably really upset you to go to the Orient and see the kinds of things people eat there!
Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents... Is it only okay to eat tuna because there are still
lots of them? Who's to say when a food source must end or if it is 'natural' to eat them until they are all gone. Does a snake stop eating mice when
he has a harder time finding them as they become fewer where he hunts?
Have a great day and think logically instead of emotionally, for a change! |
dk: thank you for your revealing post 
"Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents" said DK
ya, sure, you betcha!
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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That is know as 'food for thought' ... Mr. goat 
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BajaBlanca
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Registered: 10-28-2008
Location: La Bocana, BCS
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Turtles are eaten everywhere here in these villages in Baja California Sur.... it will take a lot of time before those who are used to eating them
really understand that they are endangered...that enlightenment only comes with real education. I think environmental groups still have a lot to do
to convice those who still eat turtle = a comfort food.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64852
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Exactly!
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Registered: 11-20-2007
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I have been pretty clear how I feel about people torturing and killing sea turtles. That said I am still willing to give Olivia and Mark their day in
court to prove they had nothing to do with it. I think I have been very fair to them as I do not know the truth.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.
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Yeah....that stuff was really popular. Turtle oil in everything.
Actually, I never thought for a second that there was any turtle oil in any of the stuff. I mean, how would you know?
It's like all the Vanilla Extract you see on the shelves today. I doubt there's any real Vanilla in that stuff either.
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore
uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).
DK
You just can't not get political can you.!!!! |
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by wessongroup
Not a clue why one would have these responses to Mr. Munoz’s submission to official documentation, which in fact prove his position, at this time.
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A. Mr Munoz publicly accuses Marc and Olivia of drug trafficking and destruction of endangered animals.
B. Mr Munoz provides documents of his real estate ownership as some sort of proof in his case.
What does one have to do with other?
Are we to conclude that because M&O lost their land dispute (if they did) with Mr Munoz they are also guilty of the above crimes?
What documentation are you looking for M&O to provide?
Shouldn't the accuser provide documentation for the crime he's accusing? And not the other way around?
I have to admit that my initial reaction to the display of official documents were "What on earth ...?". But apparently a couple of nomads found them
to be pertinent to this case. The only thing they show, in my opinion, is that there is a verry strong likelihood that Mr Munoz has alterior motives
that the criminal accusations of M&O stick.
I have no legal background, but aren't those documents the sort of thing a judge would forbid as inadmissable evidence in a court of law because they
have nothing to do with the case in hand and tend to bias the jury? Isn't that in fact what Mr Munoz is trying to do with the reader?
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For a start... ANY documentation !!!!
As for the other... here is a post dated 4-13-2009 @ 09:59 on the very first page of this thread which "brings up" Mr. Munoz's name and property
stealing ... FIRST!!! and was put up by Baja&Back
Barry & Vanda
Baja and Back RV Tours
Vancouver BC Canada / Baja
http://bajaandback.com
This is a quote from the Baja&Back post
"FYI: The guy posting at Bajaforums as "San Buenaventura" is Munoz himself, the person who is trying to steal miles of beachfront in Concepcion by
invading and fencing it. He has had a running battle with Mark & Olivia for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he planted the turtle evidence on
them, considering his black reputation.
He also sent emails out to baja caravan companies, including us, that we have to pay HIM next year to stay on Bahia Concepcion beaches! I will post
his email on this forum when I have replied.
Look for this snake lawyer to show up on Nomads forum soon ..."
In the previous posts on the first page, there is no mention of land and/or Mr Munoz being involved until this post...
So please explain, how one concludes the issue of land ownership was started on THIS thread by Mr. Munoz?
[Edited on 7-11-2010 by wessongroup]
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Bajatripper
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3148
Registered: 3-20-2010
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
I do not drink!
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You ought to, it might make you a happier person.
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
Member Is Offline
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Good post Bajatripper.
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
That is know as 'food for thought' ... Mr. goat |
also known as idiotic blather
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Skipjack Joe
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8084
Registered: 7-12-2004
Location: Bahia Asuncion
Member Is Offline
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Mr Wessongroup,
This thread is 79 pages long and contains over 1500 posts. It wanders all over the place. I am not going to read all those posts now to look for
exceptions to my statements. The post you found wasn't even made by either of the 2 parties.
The gist of the thread is as follows as I see it. Mr Munoz and M&O had at one time land disputes over some property rights which Mr Munoz won in
court and is now the undisputed owner of it. In all honesty I don't remember any posts by M&O disputing this at any time.
The thread really starts with Mr Munoze's accusations of narco trafficking and turtle poaching (hence the title of the thread). Virtually every post
he has made over the last year keep hammering on this subject. Am I to post his quotes here as you did?
Mr Munoz claims that he now needs to defend himself. From what? He has been the accuser in the entire process. The driving force in this pursuit of
justice. And yet his credibility in the matter are some court documents dealing with his real estate dealings. What nonsense!!!
Listen, if Mr Munoz is so apalled with the destruction of turtles he would be active in their conservation by now. He could organize a watch group of
turtle poaching in baja. He could contribute monetarily to such organizations that already exist. He could get involved in turtle rearing projects to
negate the effects of poachers. But no. Mr Munoz is only interested in the single alleged poacher living next door. Now tell me, how believable is the
word of such a man?
But there is more...
As the thread evolves Mr Munoz starts to call Investigator8 as the only reasonable mind here. It also just happens that this man is the only one that
agrees with him.
Jesse ,who doesn't buy Mr Munoz's argument, is now being referred to as NarcoHelper or some such thing.
I don't know about you, Wessongroup, but the man doesn't inspire trust in me. At best I see him as cagey.
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wessongroup
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21152
Registered: 8-9-2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suicide Hot line ... please hold
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The contents is of importance, not the poster.. as names change
And the only way to find out who start this entire "Soap" was to find the first poster.. that you don't want to find it.. is not of concern and has
nothing to do with the fact, that this post was made and in alleges both land grabbing, and illegal actions by Mr Munoz, if you can't see the
importance, again, that is not of concern or importance. The post is through
I just started to read from the start... had never done it.. I came in on page 70 and did not want to wade through the whole sorted story... that is
why I asked could anyone prepare a report, keep the cover page to one page, included a list of players, include a chronology and support everything
with documentation... pictures, evidence in what ever form.. statements et al..
What came back was supplied by only one individual, and then statements were again made about many other issues, and did not related to "turtle meat".
I thought, well... I'll will go back and find the "first person" who changed the threats original point, "cooking of turtle meat".. was not sure how
far it was going to take ... but, was pleasantly surprised to find my answer on the first page, which I then noted, and post to "show" that it was not
Mr Munoz who started this whole thing, but someone else.
I did not even point out, that in that post the first mention of Mr Munoz being an alleged planter of the turtle meat in the subject restaurant where
an official found an animal one is not supposed to possess and/or eat.
Again, I have requested documentation from anyone to help with this point, yet none have supplied any to date.
We have been given assurances by one individual this evidence is forth coming.. one can only wait...
I hope this provides you insight into my involvement in this issue.. it has been only since page 70 which equates to posted on 7-1-2010 at 07:35 AM
Someone had suggested that I take a look at this thread.. I had never been on it to the best of my knowledge... but, then I'm an old guy on drugs.. so
don't be to hard on me if I'm off a bit on things.. I try and keep things straight.. but, don't claim to be perfect... was just struck by the degree
of emotion going on over a turtle stew !!!
[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]
[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18380
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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here is a reminder:
| Quote: | Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
To all concerned; yes, I have been involved in many different and some very bad situations, affecting my business for more de 19 years, my reputation,
my image and my life of all the ones I love including our families and friends. I am not going to tell you all of the details of this lately federal
offense that indeed happened in my restaurant on Saturday April 11th, Easter weekend, because is and going to be under investigation. I am working in
my restaurant and my business is open that’s a big plus, yes it is a huge felony and you don’t stay out to tell the story, you go straight to a
federal prison and might be 1 to 9 years in jail, but who ever is trying to nail me down didn’t do it right. I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW
because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from
Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant. The officials from
Pesca and Sagarpa including the marines were there for hours and DID NOT find any illegal and/or out of season species in my freezers or
refrigerators, what they found in a pick-up truck outside the restaurant in the garbage containers was these plastic bag with parts of a turtle, 2
heads, 4 fins and the chest or bottom part of it, NO BLOOD OR GUTS. Also parts were in a plastic bag type that I do not have here. No other parts were
found.
Someone called after dropping off a blue covered pot at my restaurant and said “there is a pot blue with turtle at Buenaventura. Parts of turtle in
trash, and drugs under the computer.
Rafael Munoz “el mano negra” mentions that I have several reports in Mulege for different “crimes” but HE does’nt say that he is the one that made all
these accusations against me and fail in all of them.
If anyone has questions about me and wants to know more about these nightmare feel free to come to my restaurant, because I am not going to play this
BS that Munoz plays.
Muchas gracias, Olivia Higuera. |
who knows what the real story is???????????????
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