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Skipjack Joe
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[*] posted on 7-14-2010 at 07:56 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Joe,

Where exactly were YOU called a liar and/or a coward?

Again, please support your statement, give me the link where this occurred.. I know that I have not called you a liar or a coward.. to the best of my knowledge, I don't even know you..



Right here. But you're right: Jesse's the liar, I'm the coward.

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
Spot on Wesson group... For you cowards in here that insist Rafael Muñoz Martinez is a thief and a liar, and post those opinions of him in here please feel free to contact him in u2u to arrange a meeting where you can go see him face to face and call him a thief and a liar you Keyboard Billy BadAss Wannabes. Go ahead...


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
For you to dismiss the need to document as irrelevant.. is of course your own business.. it however does not hold up under scrutiny ... hence the reason for the need to document what events have occurred.... it's called due process...


I didn't say the need to document is irrelevant. I said the documentation provided is irrelevant. In fact, I asked Mr Munoz to provide documentation that DavidK asked supporting his accusations that M&O are guilty of narc trafficking and turtle beheadings (that's relevant documentation).


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
It would appear that you do not feel that due process is necessary .....


No. That's why I'm ignoring Mr Munoz's public accusations until the courts decide and he provides documents to support it.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I for one, would not like to live in any place like what you are describing.. As if one does not agree with your position.. then they are automatically wrong, and cannot PROVE themselves innocent, cuz documentation (evidence) doesn't mean anything.. and reading the whole case is to time consuming..


No. I said you are entitled to your opinion but I don't share it at this time.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I have asked for the same ground rules for both parties.. if someone says.. that X happened... then support it with a witness, a written statement obtained through credible sources.. along with any and all documents which will prove their case

As for the innocent not having to provide any evidence to support their side of the story.... I find that really quite hard to understand.


That's correct. M&O are innocent until their accuser proves their guilt. That's the way it's in this country. So far Mr Munoz has not shown any legal documents that the courts have found them guilty.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I do not reject evidence, I do reject "posts" on an internet bulletin board where people do not even identify themselves with there true name, email addresses, phone numbers, pictures et al...


As stated ad nauseum, there is no confirmed evidence yet. Just rants.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not afraid to put up my ugly mug, and my wife's... my dogs.. Where I live .. Hell I have a live camera.. you can watch the wife hang out the clothes.. I wear Fruit of the Loom ..


We finally agree on something. I wear the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not really afraid of anything, getting old has that effect .... If someone comes by and shoots of stabs me.. or takes my personal possessions.. well, then it will happen... but, I don't live my life in fear, and I certainly don't live my life accusing someone of something without "EVIDENCE"...

Apparently it is no big in many folks book.... it is in mine...


No. Wiley. Read the post. The quotes are there because Mr Munoz has provided documents documents which have nothing to do with the current accusations. They deal with past history.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Everyone deserves the same type of Law to protect themselves and others from accusations which are unsupported by fact .. I'm old school, but I'm not into vigilantes yet...

Seems that is what we are talking about.. Law and its implementation in BCS


Absolutely. That's why they're not in jail. Because they haven't been proven guilty.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Sorry you feel, that my request for documentation to support one's statements is such a big deal... and I do not reject out of hand "posts" I have only requested that when someone makes a statement about "what" happened, or "that" someone did something... is supported with something .... not just talk..


On the contrary. Please ask Mr Munoz to provide documents supporting court decisions regarding his accusations: narc trafficking and turtle slaughter.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not sure you would feel the same way if the positions were reversed...


I would feel the same way. If I was accused of a crime I wouldn't want nomads to find me guilty until the courts did. I would be very angry if someone was given a free hand to slander me on the internet without having the decency of proving it. As Mr Munoz has been doing and been given the freedom to do so.


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
This is not intended as a means to start a fight, rather to bring one to a conclusion... through simple process called P.O.S.T

Wiley S


No fight intended. Just a misunderstanding.

Your desire for a conclusion is reciprocated. That's why I said "Let's get off this merry-go-round".

Sincerely,
Igor
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wessongroup
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[*] posted on 7-14-2010 at 09:33 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Wesson, I know... but I was trying to use as few words as possible to get Nomads to do what you wanted (read the beginning)... I did that because if a post is toooo loooong, people get glaze-eyed, and may not bother to read it, knowing they may fall asleep before getting to the end... so for me, short, but sweet works.

Sr. Muñoz, to you this is not about turtle killings... you are here to try and do as much damage to Olivia and Mark as you can. Hoping to reduce their business income and force them to leave so you can grab some more land.

Instead of wasting time on Nomad, start a turtle rescue project at your Bahia Concepcion hotel or other land. See the progect at Bahia de los Angeles for an idea on what to do... It would be GREAT PR for you and a slap in the face to turtle eaters!

Some photos at the turtle project in Bahia de los Angeles... (oh, we love turtles and hope their population rebounds):







As for you, I don't want to be enemies... but you have said so much against Olivia and Mark, that an apology is in order in public, and then you would have my support in your future turtle research project at Bahia Concepcion!

The ball is in your court!
Viva Baja!


Thanks DK, know you don't and I know I'm a wind bag.. told by everyone... always putting my foot in my mouth.. have done it so many times.. just seems natural any more..

As we have talked before... we have much they same thinking on a lot of stuff, on others we differ.. a car is a car.. I don't have a love affair with cars :) ... and not far off on this either.. would just like to be very sure of "things".... when they get into the level that someone may lose their freedom and have to go to jail..... that's a big one in my book ... and want to "silk screen it"

To my knowledge I have not said anything against Olivia and Mark.. I have only asked for their side in document fashion.. I don't even know the folks.. and what Im asking for can not hurt their case only strenghten it !!

Just to show, all are under the same magnifying glass, I'm doing some looking myself.. making up a list of everything I can find about this site and/or individuals associated with it ... I wish to insure that a through look is conducted at ALL aspects and would prefer to use as many other outside sources as possible .. than just this board and documents submitted hear thus far..

I have not taken any side on this issue, I will respond to anyone who submits evidence to proof their case .... usually thanking them.. as it not a "friendship thing"... it collecting evidence...

I'm trying to find out in a systamatic fashion what has been said, what viloations of Mexican law have been broken, what charges have been filed, what decesions, if any have been made, and if those decesions have been made there out come and then that would mean the case is closed and any and all documents in a file can be copied under the Freedom of Information Act which is in effect here is Mexico..

Which in its self would put to bed at least what was used to reach the decesion... and open other avenues of redress possibily

I attach two Google translations of one Document which I found issued by PROFEPA on beach closure by fence 2/10/2009... I will not speculate on their meaning at this time .. just that I found documentation which I will date and log into a data base..

Attachment 1



Attachment 2





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[*] posted on 7-14-2010 at 09:48 PM


Igor.. trying to stop the go around.. and the only way is to continue to search for All the facts.. which I will continue to do.. see above post to DK

Have no "friend" in this .. now what would one call this .. a case, don't know for sure if there is on being tried... investigation(s).. that one I don't think a gringo can do down here in Mexico unless we are doing a joint investigation between like DOT ... see I'll not go to the other.. try and stay in the middle and use the Department of Transportation..

However, with various agency's involved, I believe that many facts can be obtained through routine requests.

Which I don't mind doing.. been a while since I've done anything... so it's giving something to do other than post..

Plus I'm learning about Mexican law, Politics, Zoning, Taxes.. lots of neat stuff..

Now if I can keep from pi*sing everyone off... which has always been my downfall ..... I am a dreadful person to work with or for... just terrible ... won't listen to anyone.. really bad.. so... I usually work best by myself... which will keep me from underfoot and allow all to have a good time..

Will try and keep it down to a dull roar.. but, would like to find answers to a lot of questions which have been brought up here... with a lot of strong feelings.. which I can appreciate.. I'm my be dumb, but I'm not stupid.. :):)

Let the chips fall where they may... including my terrible grammar and spelling.. you might note that I don't use Word.. just type..

Maybe a Skeet's Jr... and the best of luck to him on his surgery

[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]:lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]




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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 07:50 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?

Even if true, why not encourage Muñoz to start one?




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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 11:47 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?

Even if true, why not encourage Muñoz to start one?


I'm all for that, DavidK. So, when might we expect the first harvest?
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 01:31 PM


Shipjackjoe
What you say makes sense but the problem is that very few people makes it.
You can see Jesse the cooky liar and Kat 54 who lie and lie and lie attacking the person and not the arguments; they are just trying to rise a doubt about a person and not about the issues dicussed here and that is what causes the problems about being called a liar because I only call a person a liar until I demostrate them as liars.
So if you want reason here, direct your criticism to the person who attack without any reason behind their words and I don not see you doing that.
You see here only part f the information exchanged because a lot of people write through U2U and email direct; I see a lot of persons here who write me to express support and to tell that those not reasonable people should not keep me from continuing pressing the sea turtle issue and that is what I am doing; also a lot of people who want to know bout land legality issues and I think I will open another one on that matter.
So do not think that people just read this and keep it to themselves, that is why this is one of the most read and participated discussions, do not miss that point.
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ramuma53
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 02:31 PM


Jesse the cooky liar
Now I see that you refer to the late Mr. Juan Ernesto Corona Flores as my boss and for the people, who do not know who he was, because he died a year ago, let me explain to whom Jesse the cooky liar refers to without any respect.
Late Juan Ernesto Corona Flores was the owner of the Corona Plaza hotel chain, also Castillos del Mar owner in Rosarito Beach and Football Tijuana stadium former owner.

Well, to cal him my boss, I would have to work or have worked for him, not give him a service, get a wage from him on a periodical way, or, to be called his partner, I would have to own part of his business or him part of mine; any of those facts would have to be true so “Jesse the cooky lair” were not a liar again.

I am about to demonstrate you a liar again Jesse the cooky liar2 .

Well, in no public registry, there is a single inscription, where I own part of any of Corona's business or properties, nor he own any part of any of may businesses or land, not a single one; my only relationship with him was, that I directed the strategy, to win the case of Castillos del Mar against Ejido Mazatlan, directed only, because the one who executed the legal procedure was the Guillermo Ruiz Hernandez law firm, not me but my team directly executed the technical part because it was the critical issue.

I also did not work for him, because I have never worked for anyone and I mean anyone, because I have worked in my own businesses since I was 16 years old, I have never worked nor for him nor for anybody else.

Just to confirm that, Ernesto's property is less than mine, so it would be illogical that the employee has more property value than the boss, but I would like to see you providing a single proof that I work or worked for him or to make it easy on you, for anybody anytime.
Also and not less important, even if you obviously did not like Juan Ernesto Corona Flores, it is a very different story to call him a crook or something worst, that you try to imply, because Ernesto had all his business on the surface and as a legal businessman; from the start when he was young, he was and always were a workaholic, when he made his fortune through liquor stores on Revolution avenue in Tijuana, to when he owned a liquor store chain all over Baja; then when the law changed and turned liquor stores in to a less profitable business, he sold his chain and went in to the hospitality business with Hotel Corona Plaza in Tijuana then Rosarito and bought Castillos del Mar already made, so his business career is public and cleaner than yours for sure; also his brother Gustavo Corona Flores was President of the Business Commerce Chamber in Tijuana and almost National, he has a clean business and is public figure in Tijuana; he was almost the Tijuana major candidate.
I know, Ernesto was not a lovable guy, he was a bad-tempered guy and was not easy to be his friend, but from that, to imply that he had shady connections or businesses, is a long way, because when I was helping him with Castillos del Mar, anything would have had surfaced and didn’t, in fact, his hotel was used by the Federal Police to keep their people living; also, he crossed the USA border every day to his sons house in Chula Vista, so the American authorities would have stopped him, if he were in any but any not clear business and to close on him, he was a poor rich guy, a workaholic to the final day, he was always struggling to pay for his employees wages; I saw him a lot of times ask for hard lent money to pay for the week wages; do that sound like a guy who is in a shady business???? Only to you, who speak just to put dirty on people you do not personally know.
Also since he is now dead, and he died while playing football as he did every Sunday in Otay mesa public camps; I would like you to say anything about him to Tommy his son, you will find him an interesting karate expert guy, but more lovable than his father.

Jesse, you are a no scrupled guy, but you should put on leash you viperous tongue, some people may take offense harder than me; I am a very civilized guy who does not take offense from people like you seriously, I even make fun of it, but other people are more serious about that, so be careful with your venom, it may turn on you.
:no:
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:00 PM


Well, it doesn't get any clearer than that, apparently "some people" may take offense at the posts of a lonely cook somewhere in baja, so i have deleted most of them because i am not going to get into trouble over something that doesn't concern me.

I am permanently out of this discussion, good luck to all.




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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:00 PM


David K
You portrait me here as a rich guy on a mission to bother a nice lady who is a hard working person together with his lovely husband and who is trying to steal more and more land starting with Olivia’s land while using the sea turtles I planted on her as a tool to obtain my devious goals.
I have demonstrated, not just talked about like you do, that nor she nor Nark are nice guys, they are already convicted felons just waiting for more convictions and be put in jail for a long time.
I have demonstrated here with logical conclusions that Olivia cooked the sea turtles and that it is impossible that any of my people or me, planted the sea turtle pot on her own hands, well, she made the case against herself very good anyway.
I have demonstrated that I legally own my land through legal titles already checked tanks to Olivia by several Federal authorities so I am not steeling any land.
I have demonstrated that Olivia does not own any but any land nor has she provided here proof of any land owning and it is impossible to steal land from somebody who do not own any land, well, she is not even an ejidataria now to be able to steal from her ejido land.
I am not getting any more land or want more land, I have more than enough with the land I own I Rosarito and Baja.
I do not have to get Olivia’s land, because she does not own any of the land she uses, she is in Federal Zone, public property and I do not need or want that, my property has 5 Km. of beach front, why would I need her 100 mts.
Why I do not want her there, is clear and upfront, I do not want drug landings in front of my property, I do not want sea turtle or animal killers there, I do not want sea turtle stew being sold in front of my property, also and I do not want a drug supply there; also I do not want them there because as I have demonstrated, they have destroyed my property several times and almost killed some of my Hotel guests; do you think I need more just cause??????? Would you yourself need more ??????????
Since everything you say is a lie, do you want me to start calling you also a liar, because it sound very fine to me “David K known Liar”.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:17 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
“David K known Liar”.


rams-anus53:
don't strat a flame war with DK, you will lose, as he has an endless supply of hot air and is not afraid to use it :lol:

p.s. you are getting very tiresome. this subject is old and worn out.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:20 PM


David K
Concerning the Turtle project, I may not start one, but I would certainly help on one that really is designed to keep those wonderful animals around forever.
I have several PADI scuba diving certifications so I know them in their element; I can help in any way to just keep them there, to look at them in books is not the same thing and to look at them in a stew pot is something very sad and more when you see Narc cut parts from the live animal like he did to the beautiful piggy he killed in front of everyone with a knife; you should have heard the animal cries and his cold killing actions; no animal deserves that; they deserve at least a painless dead.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:32 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
“David K known Liar”.


rams-anus53:
don't strat a flame war with DK, you will lose, as he has an endless supply of hot air and is not afraid to use it :lol:

p.s. you are getting very tiresome. this subject is old and worn out.


Aaahhh... goat... knew we were missing something... and of course... we get that from only you...

Yes, the search for truth, protection of the environment, and civility would be a bit tiresome to you...

Speaking of old and worn out... just might be the bleating of the "goat"

Back to work...




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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:33 PM


Jesse the Cooky liar
That is the only reasonable thing you have said here and maybe in your whole life.
You can insinuate anything about me here, I will answer and have fun with it, but you going to imply that other people are something, just to try to get some dirt on me, is not very smart in Baja, keep it on me only, your vendetta is on me, don't get in to trouble with other people, I know you are a harmless cooky but some other people may not take that in to account and remember that we are in Mexico.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 03:58 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Yes, the search for truth, protection of the environment, and civility would be a bit tiresome to you...


turtlebutthead:
if you are searching for that, don't be reading this thread. this thread is just juvenile blather
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 04:18 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
David K
I do not have to get Olivia’s land, because she does not own any of the land she uses, she is in Federal Zone, public property and I do not need or want that, my property has 5 Km. of beach front, why would I need her 100 mts.
“David K known Liar”.


You mean you do not want to control the beach un front of the hotel?
If Olivia puts a caravan or two in front of the hotel with the generators blairing that would be OK?
And she can collect their money too?
DavidK is a "known liar"?
What is he lieing about?
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 04:36 PM


Just a comment on the newspaper story.

The newspaper clearly say that my fence, because I put it up, is hundreds of meters from the beach, every inch on the highway, so I was fencing my property on the highway side as I am allowed by law.
Olivia called the authorities on me, lying as always, as if I was fencing the beach, but the authorities checked and no beach was being fenced or closed as she said to them and it is said on the nespaper story too.

What they said, was that La Perla beach entrance was being closed by me and yes, it was closed by me, also the former entrance to La Armenta was closed by me, because it is my property and miles from anybody else's federal concession, including Olivia, who only has a 100 mts. concession on Buenaventura beach; I closed those entrances to enhance security and closing those entrances does not mean I closed access to the beaches or did an illegal act, because if you know the place, you can enter to Requeson beach and through the existing road access parallel to the beaches any of those beaches can be reached; but you have to pass in front of the fisherman living there who work for me; why? because as you know, last year, an American was killed in La Armenta by some drug addicts who found it easy to do it, because they were able come in and out of the beach without anybody looking at them, because of those redundant entrances; anyway they were caught by the police with the victim's car; stupid drug addicts.

I was not even fined or even cited by the authority, because it is not an unlawful act, to fence your property; it is not unlawful to stop cars from crossing your property; the law say, that you must allow entrance to Federal Zone once every 800 meters, if there is no way to go in to that particular place and since you can access every beach front from Requeson road, there is no need to allow more entrances, case closed.

Also, for your information, “allow entrance”, means to persons on foot, not cars; you are not obligated to allow entrance to cars to your property and people accessing on foot the beach, cannot wander on your property, just cross it to the beach following a narrow designed passage.

Also, having a concession like Olivia has for Federal Zone, means she can make a restaurant business there only, not sell alcohol that is not covered by her concession, that is an illegal act she does every day; also she cannot lease federal zone or even live there and she in consequence is violating federal law when she stay overnight there or when she rent a house there or when she sells drugs of course.
A concession only allow you to perform the commercial act allowed by the concession, it does not allow you to forbid anything else; that mean that if you have a concession to rent umbrellas, people can use the beach and rent from someone else chairs; IT IS PUBLIC PROPERTY, she cannot forbid anything there or anyone from using the Federal Zone, a concession is only a permission to perform that particular act of commerce, it is not a property right, is only a permission by the Federal Government.
You think Olivia is a law abiding person? just ask her to put your boat in the water on the ramp beside her restaurant. it is not even on Federal Zone, because it is in the water and that is Marine zone; she forbid anybody to use it and you must pay if you want to use it; that is clearly an illegal act, but keep thinking she is a nice lady.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 05:00 PM


Kat54
I do not need to control the Federal Zone in front of my hotel, because nobody can put a caravan in front of my hotel, that is my property and I can legally forbid them to park there.
Remember that I can or forbid entrance to vehicles to my property lawfully? what I cannot do is forbid you to reach and use the beach on foot, so you can legally park your bus on the road side and walk to the beach and even camp there while I cannot do anything about that or even charge you, but enter my property with a bus, I can allow it or not. And I can legally charge you while Olivia cannot.

Also, having a Federal Zone concession, does not allow you to charge for using it; beaches are free to use by anybody so since Olivia’s Restaurant is in Federal Zone, you can legally seat on any of her tables and not pay anything, she is allowed to sell you food, but not forbid you to use the Federal Zone.

Concerning caravans, Olivia has a concession or permission to perform the commerce act of restaurant service; not to rent federal zone while I have a city permit to charge for using my property as parking to vehicles, so I can charge you for parking there, she cannot.

Also it is unlawful to park on Federal Zone, because it is public property and every person must be allowed to use it, you can only park on my property and that is why I charge the caravans and if I do not want them in front of my hotel, I legally do not allow them in front of my hotel, I do not need to control Federal Zone, because I am not performing any commerce act on Federal zone, I am performing that act on my property beside the Federal Zone.

If you want to park on the Federal Zone, it is a forbidden act because you cannot legally park or circulate a motor vehicle on Federal Zone.

My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts, while Olivia does it every day.
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 05:23 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts, while Olivia does it every day.


Well, my friend, "IF" you are an attorney you certainly don't seems to have much of a practice since you spend your days posting on message boards.... :lol::lol:




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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 05:26 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts,


rams anus:
while your actions MAY be legal, they are certainly not moral.
i think there was illegal turtle cooking going on next to you, but i am rooting for for your neighbor. i hope your neighbor prevails in the war or you get struck by lightning.
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ramuma53
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Posts: 793
Registered: 2-27-2003
Location: Mulege B.C.S. Mexico
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[*] posted on 7-15-2010 at 05:32 PM


noproblemo2
How did you reach that brillinat conclusion? a lot of thinking for sure.:?:
My friend I do not have a practice because I do not work as an attorney, I do not get my living from performing as an attorney, I do with my day anyting I like, like writing here in Bajanomads; also I have always said that I studied to be an attorney at law just to protect myself from my own attorneys.:rolleyes:
We may say that you are not working also because you had the time to write those lines but I know it is not true.
I am also a journalist and you know, journalist get their living by writing, maybe that is what I am doing here.:lol:
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