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DENNIS
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Oh yeah.... c-ckfights.
They may just be chickens but it's ugly. A thirty minute ritual....twenty nine minutes of betting and one minute of combat. One goes home a
winner....the other is stripped of his spurs and thrown out the back of the tent into a pile of losers. You probably wont see the Dalai Lama at one
of these events.
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Dave
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Hey, Dennis!
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Oh yeah.... c-ckfights.
They may just be chickens but it's ugly. A thirty minute ritual....twenty nine minutes of betting and one minute of combat. One goes home a
winner....the other is stripped of his spurs and thrown out the back of the tent into a pile of losers. You probably wont see the Dalai Lama at one
of these events. |
Maybe it's just me but I think your mood is changing. 
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Lee
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
Oh yeah.... c-ckfights.
They may just be chickens but it's ugly. A thirty minute ritual....twenty nine minutes of betting and one minute of combat. One goes home a
winner....the other is stripped of his spurs and thrown out the back of the tent into a pile of losers. You probably wont see the Dalai Lama at one
of these events. |
Maybe it's just me but I think your mood is changing. |
c-ckfights are ugly. The Bali experience might have been the entire experience -- jungle, cab ride, middle of no-where, with Balinese out the
gazoo.
Fighting to the death whether it's chickens or the bull ring rubs me the wrong way too. It's a backward custom. I don't have to like it.
How about a dog fight to the death? Or a cat fight? Or Llamas? Bring back the gladiators.
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DENNIS
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Dog fights? People involved in this should be tortured and put to death, then prosecuted in a court of law with nothing but a public defender.
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Iflyfish
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Dennis,
I probably have seen a Dalai Lama there, who didn't make it this time around, and simply didn't recognize him. I will look closer next time. I have
also read that if one sees the beatific vision in an ashtray that one aught to keep it to oneself. I also saw a whole pile of pollo tacos to be in
the natch.
Now this is another real cultural difference. c-ckfights are a very traditional part of Mexican culture and go back a long way. Anyone willing to
share the history of c-ckfights and what role they play in Mexican culture? That would be interesting learn more about. Norte Americanos tend to view
c-ckfighting as brutal and insensitive and those who attend as barbaric.
I also had the extraordinary good luck of seeing Cordobas, one of histories greatest matadors fight in the bullring in T.J. That was my first Bull
Fight and I happened to start at the top. After seeing this fight, I started to appreciate ballet. Cordobas looked like Baryshnikov in drag. The Bull
Fight is a drama, sort of a tragic opera, in which the female power of the matador overcoming the male power of the bull. The matador is dressed as a
woman who seduces and overcomes the male power as played by the bull. Fascinating when viewed from this perspective. High drama it is! Norte
Americanos tend to see bullfights in the same light as they view c-ckfights.
This again is another cultural difference. In the USofA the game of football may have some of the same dynamics as bullfighting with a guy bent over
passing a ball to the man covering him who then hurls it into the waiting arms of another man. It would be interesting to hear how a native Mexican
views this game.
Iflyfishwhennotviolatingculturalnorms
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DENNIS
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Japanese used to wrap their women,s feet to deform them to resemble baseballs, ostensibly to keep them from running away. Other cultures scar and
mutilate their children to make them more beautiful. Do I have to think these actions are righteous just because they are performed in a different
culture? Do I try to understand their motives or do I try to understand my revulsion?
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DENNIS
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IFF -----
By the way, on your question of how native Mexicans would view our game of football, they would probably view it as lame compared to their rendition
of basketball 600 years ago when a hard rubber ball was projected through a vertical hoop on a wall and the losers of the event were put to death.
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Dave
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Bring back the old rules!
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF -----
By the way, on your question of how native Mexicans would view our game of football, they would probably view it as lame compared to their rendition
of basketball 600 years ago when a hard rubber ball was projected through a vertical hoop on a wall and the losers of the event were put to death.
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And Shaq might never miss another free throw.
The Dalai Lama, c-ckfights and sissy bullfighters. This thread has finally livened up. What took you guys so long?
[Edited on 12-5-2006 by Dave]
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DENNIS
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Jeezo, you're right. This place is really starting to cook. I'm going to turn in before the subject turns to blow-up dolls.
Hasta Mañana
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Lee
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF -----
By the way, on your question of how native Mexicans would view our game of football, they would probably view it as lame compared to their rendition
of basketball 600 years ago when a hard rubber ball was projected through a vertical hoop on a wall and the losers of the event were put to death.
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Yeah, the losing team considered it an honor to be put to death. Chac Mol at Kukucan Temple. http://www.nikonians-images.com/galleries/showphoto.php?phot... This was where they ripped still beating hearts out of someone's chest.
Bring back the real games. Let's face it. Mexicans like blood sports and Nortenos have a problem with death.
On top of life being cheap in Mexico. Was it reallly 600 years ago? Seems like yesterday.
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DENNIS
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South-Central Mexico.........600 years.
South-Central Los Angeles........... Yesterday.
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Cincodemayo
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Come on now...I never said I agreed with it I was in THEIR country. I totally DISagree with cruelty like that but Putu said the loser is Chicken soup,
not thrown into a loser pile. Heck the Phillipinos have been having clucker fights for centuries. Just like stated above at Chitzen Itza the winners
of the game were sacrificed....
This whole thread was about cultural differences and my post was just about that. I was relating MY experiences with a major cultural difference not
agreeing with it just the energy there was worth remembering with all the factors involved. I was at a bullfight the early 70's and we were rooting
for the bull in TJ....it sucked. Wished the TORO would have sent the macho a-hole 15 feet in the air.
[Edited on 12-5-2006 by Cincodemayo]
Don\'t get mad...
Get EVEN.
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Iflyfish
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Cincodemayo,
I did see the matador thrown in the air in a terrible fight in Ensenada and have seen the matadors booed and cushions thrown at them and the bulls
cheered.
Dennis,
You raise some interesting ideas. Foot binding is still done in the USofA. Have you been to Nordstrom’s Women’s shoe department lately? You don’t have
to answer that. One could do a doctorial thesis; maybe someone has already, on the topic of how various cultures, including ours, shape women to the
norms of various cultures. This often involves PAIN. How about putting holes in the ears? Have you seen that silicone can now be used again for
“breast augmentation”?
As to cruelty to human beings the Mexicans love Soccer with a passion. Now compare Soccer with Football. Can one really compare the brutality of these
two sports? They are not even on the same menu. I have met many, many men with permanent injuries suffered in high school football. How many men have
you met who have blown out knees from this activity. We go to American football games and cheer as men are blocked, tackled and thrown in the air. We
cheer them as they are carried off the field on stretchers and think nothing of it. We think nothing of it because the cruelty is part of our culture.
It is like our skin, we simply accept it. We participate in a group ritual that involves human injury. I am not saying that this is good or bad, just
pointing out a bone in our nose.
Most cultures have some sort of aggressive activity that is engaged in to sublimate and channel the aggression of the masses. I believe there is an
important role that these group activities serve to channel the collective aggression of human beings. Why most cultures seem to evolve events like
this? I propose that they serve a very important function. Have you seen the cage fighting that now is one of the USofA’s most popular sports? Ever
watch one? Why do so many find this fascinating? Why is it becoming so popular?
Animals, including chickens and dogs have fought to the death before mankind ever domesticated them. Have you ever watched a wolf pack? How about a
lion pride? We share genes with these animals. Most of our genes in fact are held in common with these animals. Human beings are genocidal. Seen the
news from Darfur today? What has happened in Iraq as the existing ruler was deposed by an invasion?
I appreciate the posts here. These are not easy topics to discuss in a civil fashion. We have powerful feelings about the “rightness” of our culture.
Most human beings are ethnocentric, that is believe that their culture is the center of it all. It is with great difficulty that we address the bone
in our nose. It is there for a reason and very hard to see, let alone dislodge. It takes courage to look clearly at these things.
Iflyfishwhennotpullingbonesoutofnoses
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Cypress
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Had a buddy arrested for "dog fighting". Ragged him about it. He said " Jeez! I was only selling the refreshments." 
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DENNIS
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IFF ---
All good points. Sometimes it can be disgusting to try and figure it out. The ultimate fighting which you pointed out is, along with dog fighting,
a low point in our cultural evolution. Spectators get off vicariously on the cruelty of the event. Sad as well is the fact that boxing is an olympic
sport.
I dont see these events as characteristics of a healthy culture. I see them as abhorrant behavior, not widely popular in our culture.
God, I dont know. It all seems to be a different rendition of war. There are even people who enjoy that.
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DENNIS
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I think I'm going to occupy my time studying the Debutant Ball and Quinceañera [sp?] as a cultural evolution of puberty rites.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF ---
All good points. Sometimes it can be disgusting to try and figure it out. The ultimate fighting which you pointed out is, along with dog fighting,
a low point in our cultural evolution. Spectators get off vicariously on the cruelty of the event. Sad as well is the fact that boxing is an olympic
sport.
I dont see these events as characteristics of a healthy culture. I see them as abhorrant behavior, not widely popular in our culture.
God, I dont know. It all seems to be a different rendition of war. There are even people who enjoy that. |
I hate the idea of dog fighting. There is a thriving group in Mulege who fight pit-bulls. I have heard stories of gringos complaining and were told to
butt out. The inference was; messing with the wrong people (sanctioned by some prominent locals) could get you hurt. On occassion, I have seen guys
walking down the south river road with a fighting pit-bull. They do keep them under tight leash control and even walk way to the side of the road and
crouch down with them when they see me coming with my dog. They even turn the dog around and block their line of vision with their bodies. I
appreciate that but it really makes me nervous. I always grab my dog when I see them coming, and if he is loose I immediately put him back on his
leash. If not, my dog would hum "do de do de do" and run up to the pit-bull and want to play.
Here's a challenge to anybody: My dog can lick your dog....literally!
Regarding boxing, that is a sport that Mexico may even be more into than us, but the big money is in the U.S.
Regarding war: It is not politically correct for anyone to admit they like war, but I bet there are some in the Pentagon and in Washington who are
really getting off. Unfortunately, they have discovered that it'll come back ta bite cha! Can you say Quagmire? I don't see the Mexican Nationals
being exuberant about war. I think their military and the country would suffer greatly if they were called into a political battle. But they had
better start mobilizing to qwell the cartel violence or they will lose the tourist industry.
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DanO
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One man's blood sport is another's ballet. I was fortunate enough to see my first bullfight in the corrida in Madrid, Spain. It featured one of the
top matadors in the country, who was gored halfway through the match. IFF is right, it was an incredible spectacle, a layered and sophisticated
living art form, on all levels -- the fight, the crowd, the costumes, you name it.
I'm no fan of ultimate fighting, but I have met and spoken to one of the fighters, a member of the famous Gracie family, who was best man at my
brother's wedding. You will not meet a more thoughtful and gracious individual. His angle on the sport comes from generations of his family's
development of Gracie jiu jitsu, which he and his brothers teach to kids and adults as a form of physical discipline and culture, as well as a martial
art. I've got tremendous respect for those guys. That said, there's lots of money involved in their sport. The combination of money and physical
violence makes for a popular pastime. Can anyone say, boxing?
\"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.\" -- Frank Zappa
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Lee
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
I appreciate the posts here. These are not easy topics to discuss in a civil fashion. We have powerful feelings about the “rightness” of our culture.
Most human beings are ethnocentric, that is believe that their culture is the center of it all. It is with great difficulty that we address the bone
in our nose. It is there for a reason and very hard to see, let alone dislodge. It takes courage to look clearly at these things.
Iflyfishwhennotpullingbonesoutofnoses |
You've raised too many points to debate all of them so I'll take your last paragraph.
Some here are not arguing (discourse) the rightness of our culture. So, Mexico has bull fights, and Nortenos have cage fighting. I don't really
see the difference between the two. Both ''sports'' are ignorant and backwards, unenlightened and pointless.
You can dress bullfighting, or cage fighting, any way you want with customs, dress, history, and the rest. It still comes down to a level of
darkness that is valued by some people as good. For bullfighting, I think there is a large part of the audience (how large I'm not debating) that
show up because they like blood.
Cage fighting looks like the same to me. The crowd pays to see the sh*t kicked out of the other guy. Blood and guts. The more brutal the
better. If cage fighting could be taken to a level where it was OK to fight to the death, the auditorium would be packed. What a sad sad culture
this is.
I draw the line with blood and death. Because it's been done for centuries doesn't make it right. Rome had the Colisium. Was any of that
right? Doubt it.
As for healthy debate, that's fine too. Let's be real though. Any ''sport'' that ends in the death of an animal is not a sport.
How about a matedor with a gun, instead?
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Iflyfish
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Is it possible that these sports fulfill a human need? Do they serve as a substitutes for war? Are they a "safe" place to channel our collective
aggression? If not then why do they spring up in nearly every culture?
And speaking of brutality in the USofA, thanks for asking about my circumcision scar, it is healing nicely after sixty some years, lost some
sensation, but all in all doing fine thank you.
Iflyfishwhennotcontemplatingmywounds
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