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Ken Bondy
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Igor I think there are many better ways to experience spirituality than with what we have come to know as "organized religion", i.e., the three major
monotheistic religious establishments. I like Harris's thesis in "The End of Faith". What if everyone on earth suddenly lost all memory, as if our
brains were all "rebooted" at the same time? The capacity would still be there but our brains would contain no information. We would still have all
our accumulated knowledge about ourselves, the world, the universe, in books, machines, computers, etc., we just lost all of our memory, like a hard
drive crash. We would have to re-learn EVERYTHING. What would we do first? Probably important things like learning how to feed ourselves, shelter,
big stuff like that. When do you think we would need to reinvent religion? When would it be important to think that Jesus was born of a virgin?
Maybe never....?
[Edited on 10-21-2009 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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tripledigitken
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In following this thread I'm struct with how rightous and in some cases pompous the proponents of Global Warming et al have become. You accuse the
sceptics of trying to bend evidence to fit their belief system, and you insult their intelligence. There is room on both sides of this issue dispite
your confiction to the contrary.
By the way, have you not noticed that the Global Warming crowd is scrambling to make the current cool off fit their model?
How do you take comfort in insulting fellow Nomads that disagree with your point of view?
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Iflyfish
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92 percent of Americans believe in god, only 6 percent athiest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/2...
In a 1982 study in which 92 percent of all Mexicans claimed to believe in a religion, an even higher percentage, 97 percent, believed in God
http://books.google.com/books?id=4Ty0-krS068C&pg=PA111&a...
No shortage in religious belief in either country.
It is not wonder that with all this religious belief circulating around that so much confusion exists about the findings of science. Some now demand
that creationism be taught alongside evolution as an equally plausible explanation about how nature came to be how it is today.
Iflyfish
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Ken Bondy
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I have heard similar statistics, Iflyfish, and they are truly frightening. When large groups of people believe in different conflicting things, all
without evidence, and their respective holy books each instruct their faithful to kill those of the other flocks (and they all do), and nuclear
weapons are available to the strongest believers, the fate of life on earth is threatened. Killing people because they believe in a different fairy
tale than you do has gone out of fashion in some parts of the world, but obviously it hasn't in others.
[Edited on 10-21-2009 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Bajahowodd
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From the Washington Post/ Pew Research Poll linked By Iflyfish
Much of the strong belief in the supernatural is being driven by the growth in Pentecostalism and charismatic churches, said John Green, a Pew senior
fellow in religion and American politics. Pentecostals and charismatics practice what they regard as the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in
tongues and praying for miraculous healing.
The report found that almost one in five Christians speaks or prays in tongues -- ecstatic worship or prayer using unintelligible speech -- from time
to time, with 9 percent speaking in tongues weekly.
At Greater Mount Calvary Holy Church in the District, a Pentecostal church, worshipers say that they speak in tongues frequently and that it brings
them closer to God.
Better than science?
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mtgoat666
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the preceeding conversation was pure drivel...
god saves us! you guys are responding to DK's nonsense!
now, back the the original topic. someone go to the arch right now and see if yesterdays hurricane caused sea level to rise or fall at the arch. if
the sand is gone, we have proof that hurricanne caused localized global warming and localized rise in sea level 
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The report found that almost one in five Christians speaks or prays in tongues -- ecstatic worship or prayer using unintelligible speech -- from time
to time, with 9 percent speaking in tongues weekly.
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Do they let these people out in public?
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Osprey
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I was there early this AM just after the storm. The swells are huge and I was very surprised to see a lot of people down there watching an old man
move sand away from underneath the arch with a shovel. Just a crazy old Mexican I guess. I heard some of the people in the crowd sort of cheering him
on. Called him Jesus.
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The report found that almost one in five Christians speaks or prays in tongues -- ecstatic worship or prayer using unintelligible speech -- from time
to time, with 9 percent speaking in tongues weekly.
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Do they let these people out in public? |
Many of them were in the last administration.
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David K
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Am I the only one who has driven the old road along Bahia Concepcion (on rock not sand), which splashes in the water at high tide... and has, ever
since it was built in the 1940's? Are islands such as San Luis Gonzaga (Willard) and Requeson that connect to Baja only at low tide, STILL connect at
low tide? Has Scammon's or San Ignacio Lagoon grown far beyond the shoreline into the salt flats?
If the sea levels were rising, then the Bahia Concepcion section of the old road would be in the water all the time, not just during high tide... and
the two islands would no longer connect to Baja... Hotels like Serenidad and others just above sea level when built in the early 1960's, would be in
the sea. The near sea level salt flats all around Baja that only get flooded during rare lunar tides would be flooded at all high tides (and low tide,
too eventually).
I am just one observer here (so far), but I give you plenty of places to see for yourselves that the sea level has not changed in 40 years to any
degree that it can be noticed or hinders our living next to it.
WHO else has been visiting sea side locations in Baja since the global warming hysteria began (right after they gave up with their ice age fear talk
in the late 1970's)??? I am not making up what I see along the coast... the same places are still above sea level as when I was a kid in the 1960's.
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Ken Bondy
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David I can understand that some people and business entities would be motivated to hype man-made global warming for profit motives, but why would
scientists do that? It is my understanding that a very high percentage of climatologists, meteorologists, and oceanographers agree that global
warming is real and human activities are affecting it. What's their motivation?
Oops I clicked the send button before I was done 
Is it possible that the observations you cite are, at present, simply too far and disconnected from the primary impact global warming is having
(melting ice caps and glaciers)?? And before you bring it up again, yes, I have been to Yosemite and I enjoy it very much. I am not talking about
ancient glacial activity, I am talking about present-day ice caps and existing glaciers.
++Ken++
[Edited on 10-21-2009 by Ken Bondy]
[Edited on 10-21-2009 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Bajahowodd
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David. Why on earth do you continue to feel like it's a conspiracy? Can you truly believe that engaging in efforts to lesson man's footprint on this
great globe is wrong? Why? What could make you possibly believe that a constantly increasing population causes no stress to mother earth? Do you have
any compact fluorescent bulbs in your home? What do you do with your empty Tecate bottles/ cans?
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Iflyfish
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David, it isn't as simple as one might think. Ice melts in Arctic and less beach is exposed in Baja. Go figure??
The reality of global warming is that some areas will get MORE water and some LESS and land will not be affected equally. Some areas will have greater
and stronger storm activity and some areas will have less. The north eastern US may become colder with harder winters while the southwest becomes
drier. It is not a zero sum game. It isn't like a bath tub where you add water on one end and it gets deeper at the same rate on the other end. There
is actually a large amount of data on the subject. Here is an interesting site you might want to look at. I found it addresses some of the issues you
are raising here.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/effects/coastal/index.html
I do believe that you are open to science as you have agreed that the earth is not the center of the universe and recognize that this truth was
brought to you by SCIENCE.
Buddhist metaphysics do not validate Quantum Physics though they do point to many of the same conclusions about the nature of matter. Linier
accelerators and looking at smashed atoms do validate the findings of Quantum Physics.
Iflyfish
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David K
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Amigos... I don't do drugs, I didn't dream up the shorlines and salt flats all around Baja. Just answer my questions if you (or any Nomad) can... Here
they are again:
Am I the only one who has driven the old road along Bahia Concepcion (on rock not sand), which splashes in the water at high tide... and has, ever
since it was built in the 1940's? Are islands such as San Luis Gonzaga (Willard) and Requeson that connect to Baja only at low tide, STILL connect at
low tide? Has Scammon's or San Ignacio Lagoon grown far beyond the shoreline into the salt flats?
If the sea levels were rising, then the Bahia Concepcion section of the old road would be in the water all the time, not just during high tide... and
the two islands would no longer connect to Baja... Hotels like Serenidad and others just above sea level when built in the early 1960's, would be in
the sea. The near sea level salt flats all around Baja that only get flooded during rare lunar tides would be flooded at all high tides (and low tide,
too eventually).
I am just one observer here (so far), but I give you plenty of places to see for yourselves that the sea level has not changed in 40 years to any
degree that it can be noticed or hinders our living next to it.
WHO else has been visiting sea side locations in Baja since the global warming hysteria began (right after they gave up with their ice age fear talk
in the late 1970's)??? I am not making up what I see along the coast... the same places are still above sea level as when I was a kid in the 1960's.
==============================================================
It is not me with a conspiracy, I am only asking you to use your own intelligence and common sense. Because we all enjoy the coast of Baja, it should
be easy to see the truth.
John Coleman (founded the Weather Channel) has tried to force Al Gore to debate the facts, via lawsuite... Al Gore won't debate a scientist face to
face. If someone challenges Al Gore in a public forum, that person is removed by force... There is an excellent multi part show online on the lie of
man made global warming, I invite anyone to watch all the episodes... specially the third.
Why is it so important to believe others instead of making your own conclusions based on what you can see for yourselves? I go to the same sea level
locations in Baja (not just Shell island), and they are all still there... not one is underwater.
Have any of you been to Puerto Escondido south of Loreto? It is enclosed by very low gravel benches, just above the high tide line, on the north-east
side. IT STILL IS.
I don't have an agenda, I don't promote anything more than self education using your own powers of observations. Nomads should help other Nomads... by
sharing their own experiences and observations so we can better learn from each other. I am also not religious, don't attend any church and am a
strong believer in FREEDOM. That is perhaps why I am taking so much time countering the man made global warming hoax being force fed the masses by the
left... all it serves to do is take freedoms from us, be it personal or financial or lifestyle choices.
Now, I would like others who have been to Baja over the past 30 or more years at any of the sea level locations to confirm what I have seen, if you do
not believe me.
Peace!
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Iflyfish
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David,
I would invite you to go to the website I have posted for more information on the issue you raise.
I share your basic skepticism and laud your independance. Most of us on this board are independant types who draw our own conclusions or we would have
been scared away from visiting Mexico years ago.
The problem with drawing a conclusion from personal observation is that one may not have the entire picture.
I am in another group where someone on the east coast reported early snow and said that disproved the existance of global warming. I showed him a map
of predicted weather patterns that showed how the North East will experience longer and harder winters while the South West will become drier. No
response. He is using his personal observation to refute all of the science that has gone into the models.
I can share those maps with you if you are interested though they are not maps of Baja, but show the predicted changes in the US. If these changes
apply to the US they will also apply to the Baja. Some areas more rain, some less. Some areas lose land mass, some don't. There are many factors
involved in why a particlar beach would not have higher water while others do.
Iflyfish
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David K
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Temperature varies... the sea level hasn't in our lives. The sea level isn't something you 'feel', it is there... in the same place as before. Will it
change/ has it changed... YOU BET... Just not in our families' life times (from man made global warming)... I can show you fossil shell beds hundreds
of feet above sea level and many miles from the shore... and there was no man made warming that caused the oceans to be that much bigger. It was all
NATURAL... 7 million years ago! 
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Am I the only one who has driven the old road along Bahia Concepcion (on rock not sand), which splashes in the water at high tide... and has, ever
since it was built in the 1940's? Are islands such as San Luis Gonzaga (Willard) and Requeson that connect to Baja only at low tide, STILL connect at
low tide? Has Scammon's or San Ignacio Lagoon grown far beyond the shoreline into the salt flats? |
With resepect to rock ledge road, the SL change is real, but has been much less than than tidal range, and less than you would notice w/o measurement
(and, no, your childhood snapshots and memories are not measurement). Also, your "scientific observations" fail to consider tectonic change.
Other areas you mention are dynamic sediment surfaces, and rates of SL change could be matched by depositional rate, and again amount of SL change has
been much less than tidal range, so you won't see it w/o measurement (and, again, your childhood snapshots are not measurement)
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
John Coleman (founded the Weather Channel) has tried to force Al Gore to debate the facts, via lawsuite... Al Gore won't debate a scientist face to
face. If someone challenges Al Gore in a public forum, that person is removed by force... |
John Coleman is a crank, and C-list scientist -- of course Al Gore is not going to debate every small town weatherman.
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Why is it so important to believe others instead of making your own conclusions based on what you can see for yourselves? I go to the same sea level
locations in Baja (not just Shell island), and they are all still there... not one is underwater.
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I believe in collecting data using a reasoned method. I do so for a living. Through doing so, I have come to learn that memories are far less
reliable than measurement using pen, logbook, calibrated measurement devices, reference datums, and a planned methodology.
Memories do not constitute defensible or useable data, particularly for measuring climate parameters or sea level changes on the order of centimeters.
[Edited on 10-22-2009 by mtgoat666]
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Iflyfish
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This is what science looks like. Please read the last sentence. This is from North Carolina, I have not done similar research for findings in Mexico.
One can easily do this research by doing a simple GOOGLE inquiry and find the science. Here is a beach on the continental US where sea level has been
recorded to have been rising since the Industrial Revolution. There are many such studies available for your appraisal.
EXAMINING THE EVIDENCE FOR A RECENT ACCELERATION IN THE RATE OF SEA-LEVEL RISE USING COMBINED INSTRUMENTAL AND PROXY DATA FROM THE PAMLICO-ALBEMARLE
ESTUARINE SYSTEM, NORTH CAROLINA, USA
KEMP, Andrew, Earth and Environmental Science, University of Pennsylvania, 240 South 33rd Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104, kempac@sas.upenn.edu,
HORTON, B.P., Department of Earth and Environmental Science, University of Pennsylvania, Hayden Hall, 240 South 33rd Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104,
CULVER, Stephen J., Geology, East Carolina Univ, Greenville, NC 27858, CORBETT, Reide, Geology Dept, East Carolina Univ, Greenville, NC 27858,
THOMSON, Katie, Department of Geography, University of Duham, Durham, DH1 3LE, United Kingdom, and VAN DE PLASSCHE, Orson, Faculty of Earth and Life
Sciences, Vrije Universiteit, De Boelelaan 1085, Amsterdam, 1081 HV, Netherlands
We provide a high resolution relative sea-level (RSL) history for the last ~2000 years from the Pamlico – Albemarle estuarine system. The need for
high resolution, late Holocene RSL reconstruction has increased with the realization that global warming may accelerate the rate of sea-level rise
resulting in increased coastal flooding. Determining the physical response of a coastline to sea-level rise is an important problem to be addressed by
applied coastal geology. This concern is acute for the Outer Banks and its back barrier estuary system which are considered as very vulnerable to
sea-level rise. North Carolina does not have a reliable, long term tide gauge record to provide an instrumental measure of historical sea level. In
order to consider the potential impacts sea-level rise may have on the Outer Banks it is necessary to place them in an appropriate geological
framework. Scenarios for future sea-level rise are concerned with decadal to centennial timescales; as such they must be viewed in light of
geologically derived sea-level reconstructions at a comparable temporal resolution. The foraminifera based transfer function approach is a
quantitative methodology which can be effective in establishing these records.
Contemporary foraminifera were collected from 5 back barrier marshes to create a regional scale modern training set. The use of multiple marshes from
a region increases the ecological and environmental diversity included within the training set and reduces the probability of a no modern analogue
outcome. In order to merge the five spatially distinct sites and to relate each to local tide levels we used the VDatum transformation tool. This
method relates all samples to a common orthometric datum (NAVD88) and reduces error.
A transfer function was developed to reconstruct former sea-levels based upon the modern, observable relationship between foraminiferal distributions
and elevation (m MSL). Foraminifera were counted in a core of saltmarsh sediment from Sand Point, North Carolina. A high resolution age-depth model
was produced from composite chronologies of 210Pb, 14C and pollen chrono-horizons. Application of the transfer function to fossil foraminifera was
used to produce a late Holocene RSL record. There is an increase in the rate of sea-level rise at the commencement of the Industrial Revolution.
citation available upon request.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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What the heck, citation below:
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007SE/finalprogram/abstract_11929...
I am not certain that it matters though given our previous discussion.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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Here is another good one on the topic.
http://www.climate.org/topics/sea-level/climate-change-sea-l...
Enough for me.
Iflyfish
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