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Author: Subject: BEV's, Hybrids and/or Independent Solar in Baja
oxxo
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 04:39 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
So at .20 per kwh even if you pay for the extra power from CFE, what do you estimate the savings on each trip to be when gas is 6.00 per gallon? If you have enough solar of course its free after the cost of installing or expanding the system. at 25mpg we get 36.00, even at ,20 per kwh its 7.00, quite a significant savings on each trip.


How many trips per month? How many MPGs for your Ice car?

Here in California, gasoline is around $5/gal and the average MPGs is somewhere between 25-30. Given these numbers, it costs about 25% of the cost of gasoline to charge a BEV directly from the Grid (no solar panels). And this is accounting for rapidly increasing rates from the Utility companies to settle massive settlements for the fire damage they caused by poor maintenance of their utility infrastructure.

My WAG for your situation in T.D. with both high gasoline and electric utility rates would be about the same 25% of the cost of gasoline if you charge from the CFE Grid. If you install solar panels for BEV charging, and after you amortize for equipment and labor installation, your cost will go down to close to 0% to power your BEV. And you will have a smile so big, it will break your face!
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mtgoat666
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 05:14 PM


Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
So at .20 per kwh even if you pay for the extra power from CFE, what do you estimate the savings on each trip to be when gas is 6.00 per gallon? If you have enough solar of course its free after the cost of installing or expanding the system. at 25mpg we get 36.00, even at ,20 per kwh its 7.00, quite a significant savings on each trip.


How many trips per month? How many MPGs for your Ice car?

Here in California, gasoline is around $5/gal and the average MPGs is somewhere between 25-30. Given these numbers, it costs about 25% of the cost of gasoline to charge a BEV directly from the Grid (no solar panels). And this is accounting for rapidly increasing rates from the Utility companies to settle massive settlements for the fire damage they caused by poor maintenance of their utility infrastructure.

My WAG for your situation in T.D. with both high gasoline and electric utility rates would be about the same 25% of the cost of gasoline if you charge from the CFE Grid. If you install solar panels for BEV charging, and after you amortize for equipment and labor installation, your cost will go down to close to 0% to power your BEV. And you will have a smile so big, it will break your face!


Selling your ice car and buying an ev has costs. Evs cost more than equivalent capacity ice cars.
Buying a solar pv system for home use only pays off in 10 or 12 years, under NEM 3. NEM 1 was good $$ for homeowners, the economic benefits have fallen as NEM has become more common, and utilities quit transferring NEM costs to commercial and poor rate payers.
You probably spend under $5k/year in gasoline, as an active retiree. You will drive less as you age, so your annual gasoline costs will diminish.
For retirees, the upfront costs of purchasing ev and home solar pv may not pay off in time left driving. Will you still be driving 15 years from now? Driving as much?


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by mtgoat666]




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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 05:14 PM


Well, I tried to estimate a cheaper SUV mileage to an inexpensive EV SUV for comparison which seem to be the preferred vehicle styles here. The Niro just happens to be a popular cheaper SUV up north quite a few of which will soon become available on the slightly used market. Of course if you compare to a 4X4 truck or Jeep that mileage is way off.

All 4 Kia Niros can be compared here, at a gas cost of about 3.80 (I wish!) per gallon, to an average power cost per kwh up north and can be customized for better accuracy:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=45...

This does not factor in reduced maintenance costs, only the fuel savings. The Leaf for instance has only 3 scheduled maintenance items after 3 years (change brake fluid, change cabin air filter, and rotate tires) a total cost of maybe 300 dollars over 3 years or 45000 miles.


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 05:37 PM


Another interesting thought when purchasing a new Leaf is you have the option of leasing the battery for 100 per month, putting the initial purchase cost much lower, below that of a comparable compact gas vehicle. The fuel savings is twice that, so this removes the fear of battery degradation and lets you invest the difference in Solar system upgrades while saving money from the time you buy.



A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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mtgoat666
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 05:54 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Another interesting thought when purchasing a new Leaf is you have the option of leasing the battery for 100 per month, putting the initial purchase cost much lower, below that of a comparable compact gas vehicle. The fuel savings is twice that, so this removes the fear of battery degradation and lets you invest the difference in Solar system upgrades while saving money from the time you buy.


Don't look at just fuel cost. Need to look at fuel, maint., repairs, depreciation, insurance, financing, reg. fees, etc.
Lots of sites out there will give you 5yr cost of ownership…

EVs have had high depreciation rates (poor resale). Some say that is changing, but history so far says evs depreciate so fast that the cheap fuel is offset by high depreciation rate- making evs cost ownership about same or worse than gas cars.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by mtgoat666]




Woke!

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AKgringo
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 05:55 PM
Remember those white gas lanterns we used to have to pump up to get light when camping?


I knew it! Sooner or later someone always seems to take a thread to "Gaslighting"!

But I do remember how fragile those mantels were.




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JDCanuck
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 07:50 PM


Yes and no Goat. Try to find a used EV for what they say they depreciate to....good luck on that one. Insurance is lower, repair costs are 50% lower , fuel is lower by 75%-100%. I would like to say something is higher but i honestly cant find anything, especially til now, depreciation. What COULD cause depreciation in the near future is technology improvements as people far prefer newer models with boosted range. What would you pay for a 2014 vehicle running on gas in very good visible shape and 150,000 miles? 20-30%? You will have no idea what is worn to the breaking point and will be taking a big risk on imminent failure.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 08:22 PM


F-150 Lightning XLT in our area after rebates is 10% cheaper than an F-150 Lightning XLT on gas....even more rebate differential where you are, up to 12,500. Now depreciate them both by 75% in 10 years. The Lightning is still cheaper, and based on MSRP it looks like it depreciated more, but the rebates were flowed through to the buyer.
Teslas were even worse, and hardly depreciated at all as the number of used Teslas offered for sale in my area were extremely minimal...people are just not selling them, and when they did they went through dealers and traded up. There was only one Tesla Y listed at a dealership within 150 miles from me and it was in transit and might be available if I bought it sight unseen and of course, the rebates were no longer available on it as a used vehicle.


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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mtgoat666
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 08:44 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Yes and no Goat. Try to find a used EV for what they say they depreciate to....good luck on that one. Insurance is lower, repair costs are 50% lower , fuel is lower by 75%-100%. I would like to say something is higher but i honestly cant find anything, especially til now, depreciation.


Depreciation is the biggest cost on a car!
And e cars depreciate like a lead ballon.
Cheap maintenance? The batteries degrade and fail just like the batteries in my power tools, the battery in my iphone,… the cost to replace battery bank in a car is astronomical.
Ecars are great when new. Not so great when 9 years old. I keep my cars 10+ years…and my last 4wd i still see driving in baja sur 7 years after i sold it at age 10. Ecars are novelty throw aways, not ready for prime time yet.




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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 08:54 PM


You are comparing apples and oranges Goat. Your power tool batteries are a totally different animal than EV batteries. They have been around long enough to show they last over 200,000 miles, and even those older type batteries have been improved on in longevity in the intervening years. Even if you buy a 5 yr old used EV you simply read its present condition and project how many miles you can expect from it before its range drops below your expectations of minimal miles for your purposes. Its not like they suddenly fail like Ryobi batteries do. If they ever do within 10 years in California, the manufacturer must replace it free of charge. In other states its 8 years.

[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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JDCanuck
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 09:19 PM


I keep my cars 10 years as well if I buy new. So in 10 years you in California have a fully guaranteed battery for those years against failure and you pick up the 12,500 rebates. In the meantime you save more than 24,000 (and growing) in fuel, half the maintenance costs you would pay otherwise on a gas vehicle. I just cannot see where the downside is here. The F150 lightning comes with vehicle to home capabilities, or even better at no extra cost, power ports to run your very necessary fridge, furnace, etc appliances in power failures, or throw out those crappy Ryobi tools altogether and get real tools powered from your truck. You can be the neighborhood hero and rescue anyone who exceeds their EV battery range and feed their batteries to get them back on the road..



A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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JDCanuck
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 10:50 PM


And once again, China leads on battery development, with much longer distance (semi) solid state batteries already available in NIOs. This is the company that built the under 3 min battery swap stations across China, where they have become popular options. Why spend more time recharging when you can pull in, get a new battery and pull out in 3 min, all done by robotic sensors and tooling? Want a battery upgrade? You just pull in and get the latest one by choice.

https://electrek.co/2024/06/17/nio-semi-solid-state-ev-batte...

And here is their 4d smart suspension to overcome those topes. You will have to scroll down past the swap station and acceleration and braking specs.

https://www.nio.com/et7

[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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mtgoat666
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[*] posted on 6-23-2024 at 11:30 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
I keep my cars 10 years as well if I buy new. So in 10 years you in California have a fully guaranteed battery for those years against failure and you pick up the 12,500 rebates. In the meantime you save more than 24,000 (and growing) in fuel, half the maintenance costs you would pay otherwise on a gas vehicle. I just cannot see where the downside is here. The F150 lightning comes with vehicle to home capabilities, or even better at no extra cost, power ports to run your very necessary fridge, furnace, etc appliances in power failures, or throw out those crappy Ryobi tools altogether and get real tools powered from your truck. You can be the neighborhood hero and rescue anyone who exceeds their EV battery range and feed their batteries to get them back on the road..


Batteries dont last 10 years. My neighbors leaf died this year, about 10 years old. Was limping last few years. Replacement batteries were not available from mfg, 3rd party batts were $$$$$$$.
Example of why ecars depreciate fast!
I like ecars. Great new. Bad used car market, no network of economical service garages to maintain old vehicles. Ecars, toys for wealthy, not ready for working peeps.




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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 05:43 AM


Batteries dont last 10 years. My neighbors leaf died this year, about 10 years old. Was limping last few years. Replacement batteries were not available from mfg, 3rd party batts were $$$$$$$.


What you mean is...the battery in his older far lower range(likely 24kwh) than those in present Leafs(62 kwh) declined to the point where it no longer met his minimum range needs. A 62 kwh is not only a different chemistry than those built 10 years ago and based on designs from 13 years ago, they also decline slower in capacity. The 62kwh battery will get to the point his was at in 2 1/2 times the age assuming the same overall use.
I did not buy a Leaf when I took one for a drive about 8 years ago, also because I didn't trust the range they would provide, despite the fact I liked the handling and other features. Even new that generation of Leafs only provided about 75 miles range. But the 3 times boosted range present Leafs provide was enough to make the difference. After 10 years my 5 yr old with 45000 miles Leaf will still provide 95% of my driving needs in the city, and we will use our second vehicle to do the other 5% of long trips.
There is a crossover where the range new is high enough to justify the capacity declines and we passed that long ago, even for us buy new and keep 10 years types.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]




A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 09:56 AM


I saw a Tesla on my way outta BOLA yesterday. I was driving my Honda. When I got stuck behind a ton of vehicles north of San Quintin I longed for that well known Tesla acceleration to make passing safer and easier…..just another way an e vehicle is compatible with the needs one has in Baja.
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 10:12 AM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
You are comparing apples and oranges Goat.


You can lead a goat to water, but you can't make him drink.
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oxxo
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 10:27 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
When I got stuck behind a ton of vehicles north of San Quintin


I HATE that section of Hwy 1 north of San Quintin. It's always jammed with work buses, school buses, and local population who are in no hurry. So I just turn up the volume on my thumb drive and listen to some smooth jazz and relax going 30 mph. I also listen to the Mexican chartreuse, Sofia Karina. I met her in person at a gig she was playing in San Jose d.C. She invited me to sing along with her, "Cottonfields" in Spanish. Her style reminds me of Linda Ronstadt, R.I.P.
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 11:31 AM


More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.



A century later and it's still just as applicable: Desiderata: http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html
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oxxo
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 01:47 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.


It is all a political game played by the Trade Unions (and supported, at this time, by both parties for political reasons) to protect their members and "turf" at the expense of the public and inflation. I wonder, probably unrealistically, if California, with the world's 5th largest economy, could override the Federal mandate and permit these alternative energy products for import into California only, including Teslas made in China, at some more reasonable tariff rate, maybe 5% - 10% ? I guarantee you would see California's economy go through the ceiling! And, you know, we Californicans are a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes, and we may just do that very thing! Screw the political game, let's get this done!!!
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[*] posted on 6-24-2024 at 05:08 PM


Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.


It is all a political game played by the Trade Unions (and supported, at this time, by both parties for political reasons) to protect their members and "turf" at the expense of the public and inflation. I wonder, probably unrealistically, if California, with the world's 5th largest economy, could override the Federal mandate and permit these alternative energy products for import into California only, including Teslas made in China, at some more reasonable tariff rate, maybe 5% - 10% ? I guarantee you would see California's economy go through the ceiling! And, you know, we Californicans are a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes, and we may just do that very thing! Screw the political game, let's get this done!!!


Tariffs? Americans prefer lots of inexpensive things rather than fewer expensive things, so we like our cheap foreign products made by child labor, indentured servants and slaves (as long as said laborers are not waspy American citizens!)

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by mtgoat666]




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