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David K
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Keep in mind, Boleo may have bulldozed over the top of the Jesuit road. You even said such was the case.
Southeast from San Ignacio, an auto road was created on top of the Camino Real for a few miles. Past a ranch the trail continues the same direction,
but a single line vs a pair of lines. I don't know the width but maybe Boleo scraped it.
Thanks for your mapping work, Harald!
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cupcake
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Very impressive indeed, Harald. I see you have El Pacifico ECR between Santa Gertrudis and San Ignacio well to the west of Kevin and Genevieve's
route.
On the strength of your achievement and knowledge, I will take your private suggestion and change my plans to the ECR in the Mision Santa Maria area.
I might still try a trip from Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio, especially now that I have some decent maps and waypoints for that, but first has to be
Santa Maria. With what you told me about the ECR and scenery in the Santa Maria area, it seems like the number one option.
[Edited on 10-25-2024 by cupcake]
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4x4abc
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Quote: Originally posted by cupcake  | Very impressive indeed, Harald. I see you have El Pacifico ECR between Santa Gertrudis and San Ignacio well to the west of Kevin and Genevieve's
route.
On the strength of your achievement and knowledge, I will take your private suggestion and change my plans to the ECR in the Mision Santa Maria area.
I might still try a trip from Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio, especially now that I have some decent maps and waypoints for that, but first has to be
Santa Maria. With what you told me about the ECR and scenery in the Santa Maria area, it seems like the number one option.
[Edited on 10-25-2024 by cupcake] |
definitely do the Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio trip!
when you are on the trail, you will not notice whether it was bulldozer made or Jesuit made
well not on your first few trips
when I first hiked it with a local guide, I was convinced it was ECR
like with all other hobbies/professions - when you do something for a long time, you see things the occasional user will not
with what I have learned over the last 40 I had to correct my initial views
all I knew in the beginning was adopted from the established experts in the field
took me a couple of decades to realize the many things that did not fit
so, what you see here is my personal view as a non established Baja expert
like everyone else in science I welcome anyone to chime in
maybe I am dead wrong
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Keep in mind, Boleo may have bulldozed over the top of the Jesuit road. You even said such was the case.
Southeast from San Ignacio, an auto road was created on top of the Camino Real for a few miles. Past a ranch the trail continues the same direction,
but a single line vs a pair of lines. I don't know the width but maybe Boleo scraped it.
Thanks for your mapping work, Harald! |
well, I think it is possible that Boleo dozed a straight trail over a meandering ECR. That would mean a number of crossing over points.
However, there is no visual evidence of that.
at least I have not found any yet.
You see, what keeps ECR visible on sat images is that animals and locals keep using it. A form of trail maintenance by pounding feet.
But once a Boleo track was established, animals and locals used that new easier route. The original ECR is no longer used. It grows over. Disappears.
In our case that would be non use of more than a 100 years. Even in Baja that is enough to make things disappear.
Unfortunately the Jesuits did not draw an accurate map of exactly where ECR is. No documents to double check.
Yes, there are occasional signs on the ground that will not show on sat images - those could indicate the presence of ECR.
Could.
Genevieve and Kevin are doing a great job finding those hints.
Like everything else in science, that alone is not proof yet of the presence of ECR.
We need more than hints.
The least reliable source are locals. They are eager to show you what you want to see. Tell you what you want to hear. None of them have lived during
or shortly after mission times.
And it goes both ways - many times when I asked for directions at a ranch the answer was: "there is no trail!" Only I had been on that trail just a
year before. And I found it again without their help. In all fairness, they could have given me the wrong answer intentionally - to keep the stupid
Gringos out of their backyard.
below a beautifully authentic section of Camino Real
[Edited on 10-25-2024 by 4x4abc]
[Edited on 10-25-2024 by 4x4abc]
Harald Pietschmann
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bajaric
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Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail?
So, to state the obvious, when they could the Jesuits probably followed existing trails that were used by Indians and animals. Then they improved
these trails, I suppose to make transit easier, in the same way that the forest service improves hiking trails: putting in switchbacks, moving loose
rocks out of the middle of the trail, etc. I think there were parts of the ECR that were built as completely new trails that did not follow existing
animal or Indian trails.
The missionaries were only on foot or burro, versus using wheeled vehicles, like the Romans. Some of the old Roman roads can still be seen after
2,000 years. The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an
arroyo or on slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods. Gabb noted that in 1867 there was no trace of the ECR left where it went up the
arroyo on its approach to San Sebastian. (This is the route recently described by fatboy). Within a few decades after the decline of the missions
the trail had been washed away.
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mtgoat666
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They would not. The pic has fence in background. Looks like a ranch corral. Rock walls are probably a ranchers construction.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666 |
They would not. The pic has fence in background. Looks like a ranch corral. Rock walls are probably a ranchers construction.
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well, no Corral involved. And yes, it is likely that the owners of the ranch (San Dionisio) stacked a few more rocks than needed. Likely for aestetic
reasons. Cows and goats would not need the extra rocks. I think it had the function of you building a nice driveway to your house or an impressive
portal to your house's door. But anyhow - it is part of Camino Real.
On a side note, in the old days a trail would lead to a spring or to a ranch, right to the water or right to the house. Because that's where you get
what you need. Water, food, shelter, company.
Today, the Mex government builds roads around Ranchos (like a ring road around towns) - because the ranchers are not happy to see Gringos blasting
through their place. Killing chicken, annoying the dogs and dusting the entire house. But SXS are soooo much fun! Right! Me, me, me - my fun. Get out
of my way. Very American. Sorry for the rant!
[Edited on 10-26-2024 by 4x4abc]
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajaric | Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail?
So, to state the obvious, when they could the Jesuits probably followed existing trails that were used by Indians and animals. Then they improved
these trails, I suppose to make transit easier, in the same way that the forest service improves hiking trails: putting in switchbacks, moving loose
rocks out of the middle of the trail, etc. I think there were parts of the ECR that were built as completely new trails that did not follow existing
animal or Indian trails.
The missionaries were only on foot or burro, versus using wheeled vehicles, like the Romans. Some of the old Roman roads can still be seen after
2,000 years. The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an
arroyo or on slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods. Gabb noted that in 1867 there was no trace of the ECR left where it went up the
arroyo on its approach to San Sebastian. (This is the route recently described by fatboy). Within a few decades after the decline of the missions
the trail had been washed away.
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animal and early human trails had one thing in common - they lead to food and water.
Jesuits needed the same - but some of the supplies came by ship. So they needed a trail to a good port site. No animal or indigenes trails going
there.
Jesuits needed to travel to the other mission sites. No animal or indigenes trails going there.
In areas with ample food and water the Jesuits could use that trail network to create a trail of their own need.
But there are many areas in Baja where it is pretty dead - Jesuits had to had to build from scratch.
Jesuits were highly educated (intellectual) adventurers. They had learned everything one needs to know about the rules of Nature before they left
Europe. They would NOT establish trails in or near arroyos. All Jesuit trails are somewhere safe on high grounds. There is an exception that I could
explain later.
I noticed your mention of switchbacks. If you see switchbacks on a trail it is a sure sign that the trail was NOT built by the Jesuits. For foot
travel and burro needs switchbacks are overkill and a way of wasting resources.
However, if you run a bulldozer - you'll build switchbacks. Motorized vehicles need them.
Because vehicles can not climb at the same rate humans and animals can.
Show me any long line switchback before 1880 an I'll buy you a beer. Heck - I'll buy you a case of beer.
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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too keep your spirits up with something beautiful
here is a hybrid of El Boleo and ECR close to San Ignacio
Harald Pietschmann
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc |
Today, the Mex government builds roads around Ranchos (like a ring road around towns) - because the ranchers are not happy to see Gringos blasting
through their place. Killing chicken, annoying the dogs and dusting the entire house. But SXS are soooo much fun! Right! Me, me, me - my fun. Get out
of my way. Very American. Sorry for the rant![Edited on 10-26-2024 by 4x4abc] |
I thought the gringo offroaders are beloved because they give stickers and candy to the kids? 
Woke!
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will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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4x4abc
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here is a genuine Jesuit built Cuesta - Cuesta San Felipe
yes, there are kinda switchbacks - but not the long sweeps a dozer would create
as I mentioned before, the Jesuit trails are organic
they follow what the terrain offers
they do not create anything artificial
Cuesta trails are rarely wider than 0.80 meters - 2.6 ft
Harald Pietschmann
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David K
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Cuestas (switchback grades) on El Camino Real was a subject I wrote a short article about a few years ago. It is possible at least one was a Boleo
road... but as Baja Bucko can confirm (as she rides mules on them), most if not all are not widened by bulldozer:
https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_...
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David K
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| Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc | too keep your spirits up with something beautiful
here is a hybrid of El Boleo and ECR close to San Ignacio
|
This photo is taken a couple miles west of Mission Santa Gertrudis, westbound. You can see the ECR climbing out of the arroyo valley from the graded
road. That was the cental or 'Sierra' Jesuit road to Mission San Borja. The 'Golfo' route branches off of it, several miles north of here. The
'Pacifico' route is more of a mystery... I am guessing is is even shorter than the Golfo route, hitting San Regis, San Miguel, Santa Ana... maybe San
Ignacito (although that seems off too much to the northwest?). Harald, any guesses?
[Edited on 10-26-2024 by David K]
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4x4abc
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here is the thing about Cuestas
they are easy to spot on sat images
you can measure the trail width
with your feet on the ground you'll have a completely different impression
they all have an effing narrow path
fact is that Jesuits as well as El Boleo created a much narrower path for a Cuesta than for their overland routes
the trail/road on top of Cuesta del Gentil measures 5.40 meters
on the switchbacks it is only 2.00 meters
with your feet on the ground it feels like 0.60m (2 feet)
the reason for creating a much more narrow path on the climb is erosion
much of the volcanic rock in Baja has a very soft base
it washes away in no time during rain
give it a couple of hurricanes and the trail turns into a narrow gorge
just think of recent images in the US after the hurricane
if both El Boleo and the Jesuits would have built a wider path on their Cuestas it may have been the initation to have the whole hillside slide down
the El Boleo tracks are only 100+ years old - but that is enough time for rain water to make their Cuestas look like a Jesuit Cuesta.
Deep cuts and the rocks left and right sitting 10 feet higher
so, without sat images and only your feet on the ground plus what your eyes see, the El Boleo tracks are easily mistaken for ECR
like with many other areas of science - once the imaging quality increases (just think of space telescopes) our understanding of things changes
below are images of an El Boleo track in the SE corner of San Ignacio
pretty much all the way to Rancho Santa Brigida it measures 3.20 meters (about 10 feet) and is in good shape
an easy hike
viewed from space the width is the same when the Cuestecita drops into San Ignacio
on the ground it looks violently different
it feels like you are scrambling down a narrow creek bed
it starts out nice and easy
but on the Cuestecita into San Ignacio the bottom of the track has been washed out
closer to town the hike becomes challenging
nothing reminds you that this was a 10 ft wide road
the transition from a nice flat road to a narrow foot path caused by erosion
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K |
This photo is taken a couple miles west of Mission Santa Gertrudis, westbound. You can see the ECR climbing out of the arroyo valley from the graded
road. That was the cental or 'Sierra' Jesuit road to Mission San Borja. The 'Golfo' route branches off of it, several miles north of here. The
'Pacifico' route is more of a mystery... I am guessing is is even shorter than the Golfo route, hitting San Regis, San Miguel, Santa Ana... maybe San
Ignacito (although that seems off too much to the northwest?). Harald, any guesses?
[Edited on 10-26-2024 by David K] |
Central and Golfo split right on top of that hill in your picture
from there
Golfo is a Boleo track for the first 6 miles until Rancho Piñami
Central is Boleo track for 15 miles until Rancho La Union
Harald Pietschmann
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4x4abc
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a little earlier I had mentioned that in general Camino Real would never run in an Arroyo bed - it would always be on safer, higher ground.
Part of that is seasonal flooding which would make travel impossible
but also the fact that most dry waterways are full of boulders and debris
fatboy can certainly confirm that it is hell to follow Arroyo beds.
the exception I noted is around Loreto
pretty much all river beds are covered with small gravel
they provide a nice flat and stable ground for fast travel
that is why in a large circle around Loreto there is no conventional piece of Camino Real visible on higher ground
it seems that Arroyos were used as informal Camino Real
amazing also because Loreto was the mother of all mission in Baja
you would expect some impressive parts of trail there
I have found some candidates and a few hints - but no trails as striking as around Comondu or San Isidro.
Especially intriguing is a map entry west of San Basilio - "Cañada el Camino a Loreto"
it indicates a Camino Real section between San Nicolas/San Basilio and Loreto
but no strong evidence on the ground
Harald Pietschmann
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cupcake
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| Quote: Originally posted by bajaric | Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail?
The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an arroyo or on
slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods.
|
Excerpt from David Kier's excellent article on Cuestas
https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_...
"...where the Camino Real leaves the San Gregorio Plain and Crosby noted that here the old road is very deeply built with loose rock as much as five
feet high on each side."
Could this have been a form of erosion prevention?
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by cupcake | | Quote: Originally posted by bajaric | Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail?
The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an arroyo or on
slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods.
|
Excerpt from David Kier's excellent article on Cuestas
https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_...
"...where the Camino Real leaves the San Gregorio Plain and Crosby noted that here the old road is very deeply built with loose rock as much as five
feet high on each side."
Could this have been a form of erosion prevention? |
problem with that argument is that those Cuestas were built by El Boleo.
As explained on the San Ignacio section - the ground below the surface rocks is very soft.
it is not that the rocks were piled 5ft high - the ground was worn down by rushing water - increasing the distance between trail floor and top of
rocks
the Cuestas were pretty steep compared to today's standards
Cuesta del Tahualila shows an average of 13% with a maximum of 35%
that will create a very destructive water flow
luckily for us Google Earth provides all the tools needed to evaluate roads and trails
Harald Pietschmann
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cupcake
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A photo of the site might be definitive (seeing it in person likely would), as to whether it is a man-made wall, or an eroded 'berm of rocks'.
I would like to know where the Cuesta San Filipe is located. The photo of this that you posted earlier in the thread is spectacular. It looks like,
because of its location, it might have been safe from El Boleo molestation. A bit near the top looks possibly steep enough that some would want a
'fixed rope' hand rail (like what could be seen on Half Dome in Yosemite, in past years).
[Edited on 10-27-2024 by cupcake]
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4x4abc
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| Quote: Originally posted by cupcake | A photo of the site might be definitive (seeing it in person likely would), as to whether it is a man-made wall, or an eroded 'berm of rocks'.
I would like to know where the Cuesta San Filipe is located. The photo of this that you posted earlier in the thread is spectacular. It looks like,
because of its location, it might have been safe from El Boleo molestation. A bit near the top looks possibly steep enough that some would want a
'fixed rope' hand rail (like what could be seen on Half Dome in Yosemite, in past years).
[Edited on 10-27-2024 by cupcake] |
Cuesta San Felipe - 25.407954°, -111.036353°
Crosby took pictures of Cuesta del Tahualila and Cuesta el Culebreado
below Cuesta el Culebreado
about 2.50 meter wide (8 feet) - clearly visible in the image
since Jesuit ECR is usually 3 to 4 ft wide (2 to 3 ft at Cuestas) this is definitely not ECR but El Boleo
not counting the other 25 clues before and after the Cuesta
hey, just my educated opinion. I am a carpenter, not an archaeologist
[Edited on 10-28-2024 by 4x4abc]
Harald Pietschmann
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