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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
Question: do you think these activities have helped the lot of the native Bajacalifornianos?
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Strange question, Larry. I think you/we have to define what "helped" means.
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Mulegena
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Hmmm, provocative...
The title of this thread "Are we part of the solution" implies a given,
broadly held belief in the existence of an inherent problem.
Walk lightly on the earth with respect to all its creatures.
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DENNIS
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Where is President Madison when the tough questions are asked. Manifest Destiny went from east to west and rather than drown in the Pacific, turned
south.
We are an enterprising, hungry people who went into Baja at a time when there were few to resist. I criss-crossed the upper peninsula in the fifties
and there was nobody to "help" or even say hello to at that time. Relative to today, it was a barren land.
I believe most of the people who Larry refers to are as new to the area as most who would be credited for bringing an influence. In the early days,
there was nobody to influence. It's a peninsula of immigrants.
Still a difficult question which I will ponder throughout the night.
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longlegsinlapaz
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Thought provoking question Lencho....off the top of my head, I can tell you that there are 3 local builders & a small army of workers who'd have
had a lot less food on their table if I hadn't moved here! 
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dtbushpilot
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My first reaction would be to say yes......I think.......what was the question again?........I'll be back in a few minutes with a beer and
popcorn....please carry on....dt
Are you trying to pick on DK?.....not sure, just asking.....
[Edited on 4-20-2009 by dtbushpilot]
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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MrBillM
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There's a PROBLEM ?
I've done MY part for Baja by spending a LOT of money there for 35 years or so without being a burden on anyone else.
That's good enough.
"I don't want to set the World on Fire.................."
Popcorn and Beer sounds good.
But, it's late and my stomach would probably rebel all night long.
Maybe a bowl of Ice Cream.
That's what happens when you get old.
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BajaNuts
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and the answer is............we are the solution? The question was?????????????
sorry I didn't get all of the other threads.
"How would the BajaCalifornias be if this huge bloom of outsiders (of which we are part) had simply stayed north of the border when Highway 1
opened up?"
How would Jamaica be, how would Puerto Rico be, how would Hawaii be without the "bloom of outsiders"?
Well, first of all, you have to acknowledge that MX1 is a 2-way street. How would we NOB be if it weren't for this influx of willing workers that
were transported so easily to the border by a nicely paved road? Yes, some started as illegals, but Hispanics do comprise a huge sector of the US
population now. When all the south of border immigrants (and descendants of immigrants, whether legal or not) get together and vote, what do you
think the outcome wil be?
are you saying that SOB is worse for American/Canadian travelers?
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BajaNuts
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I think we should let this one go by the way-side.
Where would many places in North America be without the influx of Asian and European travelers? Baja is not unique in it's response to travelers. It
just so happens that America and Canada are the closest other countries to travel to Mexico.
The influence of travelers (whether Europen, Asian, or North American) on a country is not unique to Baja, don't let it go there. Think globally.
I bet there are some Indonesian countries that have been significantly changed by an influx of travelers from Japan and China.
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bajadock
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Just finished book, "Economic Facts and Fallacies", by Thomas Sowell. Warning to left/liberal that Sowell is conservative, inclined to agree with
Milton Friedman economic format.
Book's major foundation is that "third party observers" often want to influence an economic transaction based upon their subjective approval or
disapproval of an event.
Example is England's Duke of Wellington's observation on introduction of trains to transportation in 19th century London. He blamed the railroads for
encouraging "the common people to move about needlessly.".
How many of us massage the Baja pensinsula as elites, sitting with our laptops clicking away on grand solutions?
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dtbushpilot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajadock
Just finished book, "Economic Facts and Fallacies", by Thomas Sowell. Warning to left/liberal that Sowell is conservative, inclined to agree with
Milton Friedman economic format.
Book's major foundation is that "third party observers" often want to influence an economic transaction based upon their subjective approval or
disapproval of an event.
Example is England's Duke of Wellington's observation on introduction of trains to transportation in 19th century London. He blamed the railroads for
encouraging "the common people to move about needlessly.".
How many of us massage the Baja pensinsula as elites, sitting with our laptops clicking away on grand solutions? |
Most of us?......am I right?......did I win a prize?......more popcorn on the way......dt
"Life is tough".....It's even tougher if you're stupid.....
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BajaNuts
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enjoy the popcorn.... gonna make some myself.
Baja is not unique in it's response to travelers.
It's a big world, who else has been influenced by "elete-ist" travelers?
google National Geographic Sinai peninsula, Egyptian businesses building resorts and nomads in the desert............
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Packoderm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I criss-crossed the upper peninsula in the fifties and there was nobody to "help" or even say hello to at that time. Relative to today, it was a
barren land.
I believe most of the people who Larry refers to are as new to the area as most who would be credited for bringing an influence. In the early days,
there was nobody to influence. It's a peninsula of immigrants. |
This will probably be the most ignored post of this thread.
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Osprey
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Larry, I'm semi, hemi famous for dowsing spent threads. I'll do it again.
Baja’s Metal Hand Axe
When I’m fishing in Baja Sur I usually try to find time to check in with my old pal Chuy Ortiz in San Isabel. He’s one of the most successful
commerciantes in the village, owns six hardware outlets that I know about and God know’s what else. He’s a busy guy but we go way back to when he was
just a kid, a dispatchador, the boat honcho at one of the fishing resorts so he usually can find some time to visit, have lunch, dinner, whatever.
He was in the main store near the beach and was just heading out the door when I arrived.
“Bob, I was just leaving to go see if I could sell a tractor to a guy over by campamento. Why don’t you drive over there with me, I won’t be there
long and then we can go have some lunch.”
On the way I asked him about the new hotel/golf course/marina project in San Isabel. The original ejido land along the beach had been sold four years
ago and this summer would see the first real signs the project was underway; everything takes time in Mexico – the permits took forever, some
infrastructure buildout had been done and finally the big diggers, earth movers and trucks began to huff and puff along the strand where the marina
and hotel would be.
“Another ejido just sold another big parcel for about $15,000,000 dollars. The lucky farmers are going a little crazy with their new-found wealth.
Good for me and my business. This guy we’re going to see wants a new tractor for some farmland he holds outside the parcel. Still a great market
around here for albahaca, basil.” Chuy said.
We roared through the dusty main street of a little village on the mesa near Highway One and headed south down a big long hill into a fertile bajada.
Houses and shacks and little ranches could be seen way back in the mesquite jungle. We pulled off to the left and made a few turns – pulled into an
open gate at our destination.
We were in front of a large but modest house. There was a big red truck parked under a tree, a new ATV was just a few meters away. As we got out of
Chuy’s truck and began to walk toward the house we both slowed, then stopped; awestruck. Just a few meters in front of us lay a dead dog covered in
blood. The brand new truck was riddled with gunshots, all the windows shot out, one big back tire was flat. The ATV was shot all to hell.
Chuy yelled “Carlos? Carlos?” not a sound.
The front door of the house had been blown off the hinges by shotgun blasts, the frames splintered and pulverized. The little wooden stoop was covered
with fresh blood. Chuy went on in so I followed him.
“Carlos? Carlos?” no Carlos.
It was not easy to see the whole room outside the sunlight filtering through the doorway and one small window to the right. The floor was spattered
with fresh or drying blood. A beautiful double-door stainless steel fridge looked doubly out of place in this rustic setting as it was blown to bits
by buckshot and smaller shotgun pellets. A new stove and TV got the same treatment. I stayed put while Chuy searched the rest of the place for people
or bodies. Nothing. He motioned for us to get going.
We were silent until the truck was back on blacktop headed back to San Isabel.
“Are we going right to the police department? Are you gonna make a report now?”
“No Bob, no report now. Probably never.”
“But, it’s gotta be reported. All that blood……”
“News travels fast around here. In a few days everybody will know what happened. Not a good idea for either of us to be involved. The police are the
ones who have the shotguns.
I’ve got a lot of things to do at the store today. I better get back. Call me in a couple of days and we can have dinner. Maybe by then I’ll know what
happened and maybe I can tell you a little about it.”
The dinner never happened. I called a couple of times but Chuy was out. I had plenty of time to think about what I had seen. It was the money – that
much was clear. The police were probably the shooters.
It has been 16 years now since the edijdotarios have been allowed to regularize their land. Finally the campesinos are being sought after by
developers from the U.S., Mexico and Europe. They see vast opportunities all along Mexico’s coast and their arrival changes everything.
On the plane as I flew back to Houston I looked out the window at the azure waters of the sea, the ragged, pristine stretches of coastline. I could
not help but think about TV specials I once enjoyed about social scientists struggling with how to handle rock age people found in Borneo, Burma and
elsewhere whose isolation and primitive lifestyles kept them from changing, progressing – the very first such encounter brought up the question about
metal tools. Would it be wise to give these people machetes and metal knives and handaxes? Would just these simple tools make changes in their culture
which could be vastly detrimental or do we owe it to our neighbors (are we our brother’s keeper?) to help them change, advance? Do we have a duty and
obligation or are we arrogant meddlers?
Perhaps in 1992, when the land reform was made final, those who signed it envisioned lush fields of corn, beans, grain spreading out across the plains
of Mexico making honest profits for new-age Mexican farmers for their hard work and enterprise. Perhaps they could not see what I saw at the farmer’s
house.
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baitcast
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The only problems I,m aware of are current,there were no problems in the old days because the highway did not exist.
The only few who would find their way south were fishermen who are the salt of the earth and who,s amigo,s would welcome us and all would be
well,without problems who needs solutions.
Rob
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Pompano
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Zzzzzzzz...zz.. huh..wha...? Ah, yet another provacative question...and it used to be so nice and quiet here.
If you're leaving, please close the door....and could you take those smelly Spanish galleons with you?
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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David K
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Larry, you are getting some great replies here without my needing to say a thing!
If I was to respond to the problem vs. the solution question, I would say that I hope we Norteamericanos are never a problem when we visit other
countries... that we only add to the Baja Californio's life.
Naturally, I do prefer to see the parts of the peninsula without any development as I love most the natural experiences there... I go to see the
beaches, canyons, deserts.... to get close to God, if you will.
I was lucky to have seen the peninsula before Hwy. 1 was extended south of Colonet, or north of Constitucion... and the people were happy then, too.
However, with four wheel drive... there are still countless places where I can go and have my special times... and you good people can experience it
too.
BAJA IS THE CURE FOR CIVILIZATION!
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MrBillM
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Working towards the Solution
Although they're making progress in Baja, I'll know that they're REALLY getting near the solution when we have an expansive network of Arby's, Burger
King, Jack-in-the-Box, KFC (or better, Popeye's) Chicken, Chili's and Coco's (for Breakfast). AND, we'll know they've reached the zenith when the
food served tastes like it does North of the Border.
That would be Priceless.
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Eugenio
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
[.
Question: do you think these activities have helped the lot of the native Bajacalifornianos?
And before you shoot from the hip in a defensive reaction, this is a kind of general question to the group of us here: what is the overall long-term
effect of our presence in this socioeconomic environment? How would the BajaCalifornias be if this huge bloom of outsiders (of which we are part) had
simply stayed north of the border when Highway 1 opened up?
--Larry |
Like Larry says: the question is a general one.
As for me and my experience - I think that the economic part would be worse if the americans had not arrived in such large numbers. In fact the money
has attracted Mexicans of all economic classes from other parts of Mexico to Baja.
But the socio part would be better without so many Americans imho. I would never consider living in a community with large numbers of Americans in
Mexico. It's not that I don't like Americans ( I am one) - it's just that I don't like so many aspects of the tourist ambiance. I like being around
people who work full time and don't drink/party quite so much.
But that's just my 2 cents - who the L knows how things would be...
[Edited on 4-20-2009 by Eugenio]
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rpleger
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I´m not trying to solve anything...I live in Mulegé because it´s cheaper than where I came from...It´s a nice place to live...but not great enough to
attract a lot of tourists...I spend money in the course of living and I suppose that is a benefit to the shop keepers and Pemex... I catch and release
fish and I don´t throw paper down the toilet..
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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Cypress
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rpleger
I´m not trying to solve anything...I live in Mulegé because it´s cheaper than where I came from...It´s a nice place to live...but not great enough to
attract a lot of tourists...I spend money in the course of living and I suppose that is a benefit to the shop keepers and Pemex... I catch and release
fish and I don´t throw paper down the toilet.. |
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