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Heather
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Posts: 370
Registered: 10-31-2002
Location: National City, CA
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Economy in Cabo
Talked to my step-son in Cabo San Lucas last night. He works at the new futbol stadium in Los Cangrejos (watchman/maintenance, etc.), so is an
employee of the Municipalidad (the City). Well, he wasn't paid last month, and it looks like they aren't going to get paid this quincena (2 week
payday) either. He's heard that the city is out of $$, people aren't paying their taxes, etc., so city has no money to pay their employees!
Tough times down south!
...is there an election coming up...sure that plays in too!
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Osprey
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Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Heather, Los Cabos has a room tax that puts a staggering amount of cash in the coffers. We get part of that here in La Ribera but we are upside down
by almost a mil dollars, so is Santiago, all the little towns around here. Hate to think it, hate to say it, but a lot of the tax income just
disappeared. Down here, it is a sin to let money just sit in the bank when it comes to government business. Diane in BA says she and others are giving
what they can to help out of work village employees there. I'm thinking that might be a good idea for gringos and others who can help to find a way to
get food to those many, many fine Mexican families who don't deserve to just be cast aside now that times are tough.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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Perhaps it's time to be a bit more realistic and less naive about the state of the economy in Cabo, La Paz and BCS. While this forum is hardly the
place to become educated about the series of events which brought these dire times, it isn't hard to do research to understand exactly who and what
caused these events. I suppose becoming informed and having an opinion is the responsibility of each individual, however, to suggest that visiting
retirees will somehow assist to overcome the endemic hardship with gifts of groceries is like standing in front a breaking dam and hoping to help. You
will drown in your own good intentions.
In any society, it is up to the people individually and at times en mass to resolve their concerns, those who support the problems and allow for a
continuum are not helping, like giving money to a heroin addict, gifting is not a terrific solution, though certainly we can nudge along this problem,
kicking the can down the road if that is a goal, I would disagree.
Unless, you are Soros the billionaire captain of the Open Society fund which manipulates societal change, retirees will simply be eaten up in the
process of gifting to an economic black hole.
Instead, perhaps, an effective direction could be self-education about the specific events that cause economic failure, become familiar with the
political skyline, know who was in power last, what events occurred, what is the budget, where is the money? Draw a map naming the names and
chronological events, remedies exist for these failures of checks of balances. Teaching and sharing the values of criticism, self-sufficiency,
conservation, re-use and recycling and investing in one-self and participation in society are tools toward solving this crisis which must get worse
before it gets better.
While, good samaritans may be offended by the suggestion, sometimes one must leave people to truly hit rock bottom to solve their own problems before
they become honest with themselves.
In light of this, it seems critical thinking is a key skill to learn and share, economic information, farming skills, sharing non-hybrid seeds,
composting, recipes and natural drinks of herbs and tea, water filtration these are the tools needed now and forever to build back this broken
society, destroyed by corruption, theft, and a lack of back bone by the people en masse wholy supported by a transient economic gringo engine that
fuels this limping and sick beast.
Here's articles that mention a few issues
http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/entre-llanto...
http://peninsulardigital.com/?p=21813
http://peninsulardigital.com/?p=21875
[Edited on 9-8-2010 by gnukid]
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BajaBlanca
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Posts: 13237
Registered: 10-28-2008
Location: La Bocana, BCS
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wow ... I shall have to investigate and see how things are being handled here. is this a direct sign of the times and the economy or do we really have
cause to believe .. well .... that coffers are being dipped into ?????
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19932
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Perhaps it's time to be a bit more realistic and less naive about the state of the economy in Cabo, La Paz and BCS. While this forum is hardly the
place to become educated about the series of events which brought these dire times, it isn't hard to do research to understand exactly who and what
caused these events. I suppose becoming informed and having an opinion is the responsibility of each individual, however, to suggest that visiting
retirees will somehow assist to overcome the endemic hardship with gifts of groceries is like standing in front a breaking dam and hoping to help. You
will drown in your own good intentions.
In any society, it is up to the people individually and at times en mass to resolve their concerns, those who support the problems and allow for a
continuum are not helping, like giving money to a heroin addict, gifting is not a terrific solution, though certainly we can nudge along this problem,
kicking the can down the road if that is a goal, I would disagree.
Unless, you are Soros the billionaire captain of the Open Society fund which manipulates societal change, retirees will simply be eaten up in the
process of gifting to an economic black hole.
Instead, perhaps, an effective direction could be self-education about the specific events that cause economic failure, become familiar with the
political skyline, know who was in power last, what events occurred, what is the budget, where is the money? Draw a map naming the names and
chronological events, remedies exist for these failures of checks of balances. Teaching and sharing the values of criticism, self-sufficiency,
conservation, re-use and recycling and investing in one-self and participation in society are tools toward solving this crisis which must get worse
before it gets better.
While, good samaritans may be offended by the suggestion, sometimes one must leave people to truly hit rock bottom to solve their own problems before
they become honest with themselves.
In light of this, it seems critical thinking is a key skill to learn and share, economic information, farming skills, sharing non-hybrid seeds,
composting, recipes and natural drinks of herbs and tea, water filtration these are the tools needed now and forever to build back this broken
society, destroyed by corruption, theft, and a lack of back bone by the people en masse wholy supported by a transient economic gringo engine that
fuels this limping and sick beast.
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newkid,
we already know that it was George Bush's fault! 
you really are a weird variant of the birther teabag! 
still, i think you are pretty whacky blaming ALL the worlds ills on people like george soros and other uber capitalist market puppet masters. 
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19932
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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new kiddo:
i do like your connection of these threads of ideas 
| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
sometimes one must leave people to truly hit rock bottom to solve their own problems before they become honest with themselves.
In light of this, it seems critical thinking is a key skill to learn and share, economic information, farming skills, sharing non-hybrid seeds,
composting, recipes and natural drinks of herbs and tea, water filtration these are the tools needed now and forever to build back this broken
society, destroyed by corruption, theft, and a lack of back bone by the people en masse wholy supported by a transient economic gringo engine that
fuels this limping and sick beast.
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got any good tea recipes to fight the beast?
[Edited on 9-8-2010 by mtgoat666]
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Not many Mexicans on this board so any advice about some kind of informed uprising is a little silly.
Kid, can't you see that some of us could help these little villages/villagers without being discouraged by your snobbish worldview about what the
little people endure, deserve, are stuck with?
There was a time when you wanted to go door to door in La Paz to be your own kind of do - gooder for God only knows what causes you had in mind. What
soured you so? What sobering end all hypothesis of yours now tells us to forget how we feel because, no matter what, it won't help anybody and you're
the only one who knows that?
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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If you can think straight, you can solve your problems. Drink lots of fresh water and tea with natural honey and cinnamon.
In the morning start a tea with a few fresh items, whether you drink it or not, the smell fills the house with steam and aroma, after a cup of warm
tea you can put the rest in the fridge for later in the afternoon over ice.
tamarindo or jamaica tea
http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Recipes/Aguas-Frescas-653/Agua-...
http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Recipes/Aguas-Frescas-653/Agua-...
Blanca consider that one can be naive and still be a critical thinker, inquisitive, make a chart of known issues, people, use a translator to help.
Goat, we don't need to attack each other or anyone else using ad hominem attacks in order to solve our own problems when we know the facts of the
circumstances.
Use a search tool translator like this
http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
There was a time when you wanted to go door to door in La Paz to be your own kind of do - gooder for God only knows what causes you had in mind. What
soured you so? What sobering end all hypothesis of yours now tells us to forget how we feel because, no matter what, it won't help anybody and you're
the only one who knows that? |
I'll be completely honest here, my neighborhood throughout Baja has strong bonds but weak back bone, we are working together daily, that's what I am
doing here as this is my community, I believe a critical point is the naivete and ignorance of the gringo retiree-this is critical weak point, we do
meet directly with the Cota Montanos and De la Rosas etc... both for fun and for discussion, we are all neighbors together rich, poor, and we try to
have real conversations but you can see that the discussion must be far more critical, specific and there must be facts with checks and balances.
The facts are very clear about what happened long and short term. Do some research and come up with your own opinion and solutions, do not look to
anyone but yourself to resolve it.
[Edited on 9-8-2010 by gnukid]
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Full Time Residents
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fishabductor
The best way to help out the locals in my opinion is to go fishing, keep the catch (including the jacks and skipjacks) and when you return give the
fish to the locals, the fish WILL be used and enjoyed. You will make good friends, you will be part of the community. What many here view as a trash
fish is a fine dinner for families in need. |
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
it's all about taxation
once mexico learns how to triple tax
like the states they will be ok
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oxxo
Banned
Posts: 2347
Registered: 5-17-2006
Location: Wherever I am, I'm there
Member Is Offline
Mood: If I was feeling any better, I'd be twins!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBlanca
or do we really have cause to believe .. well .... that coffers are being dipped into ????? |
I just had a chat with a Mexican friend of mine whose sister is running for mayor of Los Cabos on the PAN ticket. He claims that the current mayor
and governor of BSC (both PRD) have drained the coffers. He said the treasury funds have just disappeared. I have no way of knowing if that is true
but, yes, governement employees haven't been paid for almost 4 weeks now. The excuse is, there is no money left.
It will be interesting to see how the elections go next February.
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Santiago
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3531
Registered: 8-27-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
It must be extraordinarily difficult to effect change in a country that disallows non-citizens the right to participate politically.
In that case acting locally and effecting what you can may be the only course you can take.
The ripple effect can, at times, be significant. |
Good point right there. Even more difficult if you have to do it while drinking tea.
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sanquintinsince73
Super Nomad
Posts: 1495
Registered: 6-8-2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Perhaps it's time to be a bit more realistic and less naive about the state of the economy in Cabo, La Paz and BCS. While this forum is hardly the
place to become educated about the series of events which brought these dire times, it isn't hard to do research to understand exactly who and what
caused these events. I suppose becoming informed and having an opinion is the responsibility of each individual, however, to suggest that visiting
retirees will somehow assist to overcome the endemic hardship with gifts of groceries is like standing in front a breaking dam and hoping to help. You
will drown in your own good intentions.
In any society, it is up to the people individually and at times en mass to resolve their concerns, those who support the problems and allow for a
continuum are not helping, like giving money to a heroin addict, gifting is not a terrific solution, though certainly we can nudge along this problem,
kicking the can down the road if that is a goal, I would disagree.
Unless, you are Soros the billionaire captain of the Open Society fund which manipulates societal change, retirees will simply be eaten up in the
process of gifting to an economic black hole.
Instead, perhaps, an effective direction could be self-education about the specific events that cause economic failure, become familiar with the
political skyline, know who was in power last, what events occurred, what is the budget, where is the money? Draw a map naming the names and
chronological events, remedies exist for these failures of checks of balances. Teaching and sharing the values of criticism, self-sufficiency,
conservation, re-use and recycling and investing in one-self and participation in society are tools toward solving this crisis which must get worse
before it gets better.
While, good samaritans may be offended by the suggestion, sometimes one must leave people to truly hit rock bottom to solve their own problems before
they become honest with themselves.
In light of this, it seems critical thinking is a key skill to learn and share, economic information, farming skills, sharing non-hybrid seeds,
composting, recipes and natural drinks of herbs and tea, water filtration these are the tools needed now and forever to build back this broken
society, destroyed by corruption, theft, and a lack of back bone by the people en masse wholy supported by a transient economic gringo engine that
fuels this limping and sick beast.
Here's articles that mention a few issues
http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/entre-llanto...
http://peninsulardigital.com/?p=21813
http://peninsulardigital.com/?p=21875
[Edited on 9-8-2010 by gnukid] |
gnukid, you are naive. Not one politician of funcionario that I know are poor. They all dip into the coffers to enrich themselves. You want to know
why bridges and roads have such a short lifespan in Mexico? When monies are allotted for new construction projects, money is always skimmed off of the
top and lesser grade building materials are purchased. There is a saying in Mexico that goes "Polito pobre, pobre politico pendejo". Translate that. I
applaud you nomads that care enough to help out your "hosts".
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shari
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Posts: 13049
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I think this forum is a fine place to become more educated about the economics of baja. When I moved here, I had alot to learn and only after a couple
decades am I finally beginning to get it. To understand issues, one needs to look at the historical implications and how things were done in the last
generation...to get an idea why things are how they are today....gain insight into why they do what they do.
Juan explained to me that not so long ago...within the last 10-20 years, things were done quite differently. The fishing cooperatives provided all a
families needs like power, water, food, beer, ice and all you had to do was work every day and everything was looked after. Very little money was
exchanged and everything was done on credit and discounted from your wage so it was basically cashless society...or nearly so.
So nobody was taught how to budget, or manage money...ya just went to the store and bought one diaper, a cigarette, a beer...whatever....and signed
for it not realizing the price of things or how much more things cost if you bought them one at a time. Few people had food stashed in
cupboards...they just go to the store and get what you needed that day and hardly anyone had a bank account.
Fast forward to the last few years...progress has brought a water line with water bills to pay, CFE now charges for power, phones, gas, internet and
the dreaded cell phones all issue bills that have to be paid!!! Now with the highway, people all want cars too. People still sign the book for food
and beer but they are finding that their wage which doesnt increase to reflect the rise in cost of living...will not cover all their
stuff......soooo...at phone or power cut off date, people are trying to sell their stuff to pay their bills....sad but very true.
but the neat thing is the stuff gets bought and passed around or resold or traded for something else and someone will somehow give that person what
they had to sell....for them to turn around and sell it again...it's a vicious circle. I found it really interesting how people spent sooo much money
buying single items and ipulse buying...( being canadian, I was taught to be "frugal"...buy in bulk to save money etc...stay within a budget.)
Yes, the municipalities are suffering...less money coming from government....no money to operate the town services like police, garbage pick up,
watering and street cleaners, secretaries etc....so the municiple office has been ordered to start collecting property taxes...well imagine having to
pay a property tax...hey...if ya want garbage pick up...somebody has to pay for it!!! It's a hard concept but people are just going to have to see
that changes need to be made for villages to be more self sufficient.
Not long ago, a local person could just go and put their name on a lot for a few hundred pesos and not pay any taxes or even pay off their lot. When
lot sales started to increase...the catastro found that there were lots of delinquent lot payments out there not owned....but "reserved" by folks who
had in many cases several lots here and there they hadnt paid for...so people were notified they would have to begin to pay their taxes and begin to
make small payments to pay off their lots if they wanted to keep them. While the village is attempting to collect errant lot taxes, I never heard of
anyone who had a home on a lot be forced to sell it or have it taken away from them....just those who owned several vacant lots are being asked to
start paying for them little by little which I feel is entirely fair.
Desperate times call for desperate measures and things are changing, more cash is needed so locals are gonna have to get smarter and learn better
budgeting. the entire world is changing, progressing, evolving and we all must adapt and learn how to cope...ourselves.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
gnukid, you are naive. Not one politician of funcionario that I know are poor. They all dip into the coffers to enrich themselves. You want to know
why bridges and roads have such a short lifespan in Mexico? When monies are allotted for new construction projects, money is always skimmed off of the
top and lesser grade building materials are purchased. There is a saying in Mexico that goes "Polito pobre, pobre politico pendejo". Translate that. I
applaud you nomads that care enough to help out your "hosts". |
Excellent comments by Santiago and Shari, and to Sanquintinsince, when I said "rich, poor," I meant the rich meet the poor. I am in no way naive about
who has the money.
Sanquintinsince why not speak to the issue more specifically? I guess no one is willing to, which is really the stumbling block, if we aren't talking
clearly about accounting and holding the politicians responsible directly we are always going to be in cycle of blaming ourselves and each other, the
victims.
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Santiago
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Posts: 3531
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Thanks Shari - that was enlightening and explains much of what I see but didn't understand. One thing I did't understand - doesn't the municipality
(Santa Rosalita, I think, in your case) collect the property taxes and then return some of that to the township? When you said "municipal office" did
you mean BA or SR?
Thanks
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
Registered: 3-9-2009
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I think that new kid is certainly on the right track.
National and world economics are very difficult to predict because of so many variables. Not even economists can agree.
Looking at the big picture, wouldn't it be nice of if the world could consist of a democratically based economic, financial, political and legal
system that provides both capitalistic incentive for invention and efficiency while at the same time providing a true equity in distribution of
wealth. I wonder if there were such a system in place, would there be the same amount of world poverty and disparity between the poor and the rich
that exists today in every country?
Maybe such a system requires a more educated electorate with a good work ethic, sense of honesty and fair play, and a responsible informed and
vigilant voting behavior than the majority of people are capable of. Maybe such people exist now, but there just aren't enough of them to rule the
day.
I suppose if the utopia I described is forever unrealizable and unrealistic and humanly impossible, then what the world would have is what we have now
in most all countries of the world, i.e., 1)vast disparity between rich and poor 2) great capacity or access to technology and resources 3)wildly
disparate distribution of wealth.
Being charitable on an individual basis is fine and good. It does help the direct recipient in the moment - that is generally true - and that is a
good thing, generally. It doesn't cure the overall problem - and that is generally true also. It is what it is.
Now, what is the true cure for the disparity between the haves and have nots?
[Edited on 9-8-2010 by MitchMan]
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
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Mood: mellow
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Living within your means.
What a concept.
Who'd have thunk that would ever work.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Seems like I always get the best jobs. The kid will find a way to keep all the politicians from stealing money -- all I gotta do is put some canned
goods in boxes, make sure they go to deserving folks. What a team!
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Heather
Nomad
Posts: 370
Registered: 10-31-2002
Location: National City, CA
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Hard to live within your means when your promised pay check doesn't arrive...
Thanks for the confirmation Oxxo...can't imagine what comes next for the people in Cabo. Step-son says they've been having meetings to explain what
is going on, and says that those with seniority are getting paid...but he's been at his position only a few months.
I'm sure there is lots of blame to be placed, but I'm more concerned with the future and how the city is going to get out of the mess, and how the
people are going to survive!
Shari, my husband grew up with the mentality that you described, and still tries to do his fair share of bartering state-side! Showed up with new
tires on his truck the other day...don't know how he managed that! Luckily for him, there are a lot of fellow paisanos in Chula Vista area, so the
trading can go on here!
Hard part for me is that now both of my boys in Cabo are enrolled in University, trying to get ahead, but it will be difficult with the current state
of the union ...here as well as there...my hubby just got let-go from his job in the states...so the boys are on their own!
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