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jakecard
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Article: Is Large-Scale Organic Farming Sustainable in Baja?
At the intersection of local commerce, corporate profits, U.S. consumer demand and environmental stress:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/31/science/earth/questions-ab...
Do you think it is more important to save Baja's aquifers, or to allow capitalism to run its draining course?
Jake
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captkw
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jakecard
the aquifers are running on empty,,I am not a expert on this,,that said,,they dug some deep well's near constotution a while back,(lots of ag) and all
I hear from old time familiy's, south is the well,, the family used for 100's of year's is the dryest,,and btw have you seen the golf green's in the
"corrador" ?? makes ,ya wanna cry !! if that is progress,,we are all in the deep doo,doo,,this is MY thought's Keith & lil tasha
[Edited on 12-31-2011 by captkw]
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jakecard
Do you think it is more important to save Baja's aquifers, or to allow capitalism to run its draining course?
Jake |
What precisely are you saving Baja's aquifers for? What is the problem with Capitalism? Those capitalists are growing food for a profit and are
shipping it to the US so people can eat. How is that bad?
Is water in the ground more valuable than food in your stomach?
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Islandbuilder
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Seems like the availability of CHEAP good water is central to profitable farming. If fuel prices rise, and water becomes more expensive, we consumers
will have to restrict our food purchases to stuff more locally produced.
Right now we can afford to buy exotic vegitables and fruits shipped in from all over the world, but I can see a time, not too long from now, when we
will have to simplify and limit our food selections due to price.
In other words, I don't think that there is any difference between the water and the produce. It is a poor business plan to exhaust a resource that is
essential to your production. Much better to dramatically reduce production and thus both raise prices and extend the life span of your operation.
Like OPEC does with oil.
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captkw
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ahh,,amen !!!
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
Much better to dramatically reduce production and thus both raise prices and extend the life span of your operation. |
And therefore shorten the lifespan of billions who will starve from either lack of or affordability of food.
Great plan!
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Islandbuilder
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Thank you.
You must not believe that the water issue is valid, otherwise you surely are smart enough to realize that running out of water = no industrial food
production = billions dead. Right?
I'm sit well to the right of most of the GOP, and am still an advocate of sustainablity. It's just good business in the long term, you know, the sort
of time frame that builds cultures that last, rather than the short term gains that result in Congressional hearings.
Also, do you think that strawberries are sustaintaining billions of people? Or is that the job of the Iceberg Lettuce?
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
You must not believe that the water issue is valid, otherwise you surely are smart enough to realize that running out of water = no industrial food
production = billions dead. Right? |
Wrong. We don't have a water issue. We have a fresh water issue. 70% of the planet is covered with water. There is the same amount of water on Earth
now as there was a few billion years ago. Leaving the water in an aquifer will not change the total amount of water on the planet.
Water is not a fossil fuel that once used never comes back. Water recycles itself. Do you understand you lumped water in with oil, while failing to
recognize it not a depleting resource?
What we need is to produce more fresh water, not conserve water in aquifers and not grow food. Ever heard of large scale reverse osmosis desalination
plants? If you co- locate the non-existent RO plants with the non-existent nuclear power plants the environmentalists refuse to be allowed built, they
will produce cheap fresh water.
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captkw
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h2o
only 2 percent of the water on my planet is fit to drink,per nat.geo,,last year they did a almost whole issue on the subject and a good read,, and
water is fast becoming a issue in the usa,water right's,salt water intrusion,pollution,ag runoff are starting to rear it's ugly head in calif,,and
baja ,,well,,lets just say,,no matter what you want to argue,, baja,,is a dry place,,that is not up for debate !! and Reverse omo. is still in it's
infancy and is not a silver bullet,there is a VERY little bit of ag in baja,like constution,todo santo's,la riberia....but ,, for some reason a couple
of gringo's lately ,,seem to think hey,,let's start a farm in baja,and bla,bla,bla...what is up with that ?? go over to the main land,, where in some
state's,, they really have water...I have thought the proper name for baja,, should have been SECO...K&T my 2 centovo's
[Edited on 12-31-2011 by captkw]
[Edited on 12-31-2011 by captkw]
[Edited on 12-31-2011 by captkw]
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Osprey
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It's all about recharge. That million year fossil water took a very long time to seep down, form a pool. You take it out, it still stays on the planet
but it might take many millenia to get back down there. The conundrum might be that you must resort to burning non renewable fossil fuel to make water
available faster by desal. Can't eat cotton so that might be something to think about when planning the next best thing >> make better use of
what you got.
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wessongroup
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Whiskey is for drinking ... water is for fighting ... good luck on this one ...
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Cardon Man
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mengano
What precisely are you saving Baja's aquifers for? What is the problem with Capitalism? Those capitalists are growing food for a profit and are
shipping it to the US so people can eat. How is that bad?
Is water in the ground more valuable than food in your stomach?
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Could you possibly be any more devoid of rational thought?
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gnukid
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Not to start a fight, but to spark an idea, this is not a personal attack on the posters but a discussion about resources and infrastructure.
If there is a theme of this thread it appears to be scarcity in reference to water and fuel, along with the assumption that overtime the scarcity will
become worse, based on the the idea that oil and water are limited and we are not increasing our ability to produce water and fuel, while in fact we
are increasing production, though we may need to work smarter.
The issue isn't necessarily scarcity, it's production, management and infrastructure. There is plenty of fresh water, it's just not where you want it,
currently in the north stored in snow pack in lakes and rivers, yet this water can be transferred via a dependable infrastructure, such as a pipe
line, or tankers, in addition to extracting water from the air and collections such as the the ocean.
In reference to Baja, it has been noted in various studies over the recent decades, that the water infrastructure is deficient, without solutions to
store and transport water efficiently not to mention it's often leaking.
If as a community, we focused our energies and intellect on building an infrastructure to transport and store water efficiently we would not have
scarcity as a theme.
To address infrastructure, we must be aware of who has historically been responsible for water and who has failed to build infrastructure, while in
turn profiting from scarcity. Note that corporations and government are not adequately building and managing water infrastructure while at the same
time they are responsible for poisoning the water dumping chemicals and munitions into water sources, while profiting from this process and scarcity.
One would conclude water resource is not being well managed by those entrusted to manage it, therefore, individuals and communities must take interest
in and invest in water planning and infrastructure and improve water management or suffer from poor management.
Oil reserves are increasing over the last 40 years not reducing. We do not have accurate accounting of all oil reserves and as well the scarcity of
oil is also a profitable subject to promote. Few are apparently willing to engage in thoughtful discussion about oil, it's origins, source, and
understand oil as an efficient fuel in comparison to "green" energy.
If we consider the possible scenarios, it's possible that both oil and water are scarce or that they are not scarce. It's possible they are limited or
that that they are a constant continuous biological outcome of the earth functioning as it does. Simply put we may have only one problem, oil and
water are plentiful though the location is far from some people. Those people can move or we can move the oil and water to the people.
There is very little, if any, actual evidence that either water or oil are actually scarce or limited on earth, though the concept is heavily promoted
and manufactured for profit. Think infrastructure and storage.
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captkw
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water
gukid,,wow,,that's a post !!uuummm all Im,gonna say is,,baja is rather, dry,no?? and from the rancher's that I've talked with,these later
year's,,Have shared the same story of well's drying up,,and all have said,,"it's the first time,that has happend" just saying !! K&T
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wilderone
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"Could you possibly be any more devoid of rational thought?"
Amen on that.
Only a matter of time before not only the crops will no longer be grown, but all the people inhabiting the region will have to move for lack of water.
Anasazi and Maya: Their decline and ultimate demise was founded upon exactly what is described in that article. Dust Bowl lessons? The questions
presented are not new - been 'round and 'round the block on this several times - and the result will not be any different.
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gnukid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by captkw
gukid,,wow,,that's a post !!uuummm all Im,gonna say is,,baja is rather, dry,no?? and from the rancher's that I've talked with,these later
year's,,Have shared the same story of well's drying up,,and all have said,,"it's the first time,that has happend" just saying !! K&T |
Yes, of course, though if one were to consider the issues with an open mind and critical thought one would consider there are many things which can
and will change:
Climate/weather could change for baja (likely)
Water use can change (likely)
Water production can change (likely)
Water storage and infrastructure can change (likely)
Food production can change (likely)
We are sharing ideas to grow food at each house or camp, using more practical processes we have huge gardens on the rooftops and even on the beach
having dug out a pit and replaced he soil with a plastic liner below, there is a great deal of moisture in the air that is certainly useable at the
water front, obviously the cactus use it.
Do you ever notice water on your windshield in the morning?
One example to draw from are natural plastic hothouses that collect humidity on the internal roof and channel this into channels to feed plants. These
are in use in the middle east and we have built similar units here, just as we have built solar water heaters, and other process to put water were we
need it.
Instead of a pollyanna view one must use your cognitive ability to think about and create solutions.
First step is open your mind and do not rely on others to solve this or any other problem for you. If you are waiting for industry or government to
solve this for you, it won't happen because there is no motive for industry or government to make water freely available to you. While in fact water
is a freely available resource that belongs to the people, people pay government to poorly manage it and profit from this resource.
Once more, think about infrastructure, production, or move toward where water exists.
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durrelllrobert
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Islandbuilder
Also, do you think that strawberries are sustaintaining billions of people? Or is that the job of the Iceberg Lettuce? |
No, it's the vineyards that require lots of water that sustain the billions. 
Bob Durrell
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gnukid
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There are many installations of simple solar desal watering systems to water a garden plot big enough to feed you and your neighbors. And it is
possible to build compost from household waste to nurture compost to feed the soil and mix with sand which is an excellent medium.
And yes there is a great deal of interest in this type of gardening near the waterfront and the soil is thriving year to year and garbage is becoming
minimal.
I have a friend here in Baja, some of you know him, he goes by the name Valentino, he is 77 years old and is in perfect health, he does sports daily
and lives in his camper at the beach. He only drinks water that he collects and puts through a hand powered military grade purification pump and he
stores the water in glass bottles and only drinks from glasses or ceramics that he carries in a wood box. He looks about 25 years old. Valentino has
taught me a great deal.
Here are some examples of solar powered desal plants.
http://www.desline.com/articoli/5143.pdf
http://inhabitat.com/ibm-saudi-researchers-team-up-on-solar-...
http://wiki.edc-cu.org/blogs/index.php/videos/2007/12/14/sma...
One must look critically at your actions to determine how you can improve and contribute to your community with simple solutions.
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Islandbuilder
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gnukid, thank you for some very thoughtful posts! Lots to consider there.
But, the original question refered to the large (industrial) sized farms that are mono-cropping and using large amounts of (fresh) water.
Most of your examples are for small, local community or family sized gardens, raising diverse crops and considering practicality over a distant
market.
I am very much in favor of the sort of farming you describe, and as Mengano correctly pointed out, collecting water from non-aquifer sources (which
was also part of the original post).
Small farms and gardens, serving families and communities, using reclaimed or de-sal water are in no way comparable to large industrial farms drawing
their water from underground aquifers.
The industrial farms depend on cheap water to grow their crops, and cheap fuel to either warm greenhouses or transport their crops, or to pump water.
I agree with you that we have many untapped oil reserves, and that the current oil shortages are largly artificial being created by oil producers,
governments and environmental activists (who are playing right into big oils hands by advocating against utilizing available oil reserves). But,
perception controls markets, and the perception is that we are running out of oil, and water (Mengano is certainly correct in differentiating between
running out of fresh vs salt water).
My view is that we need to move away from large mono-culture industrial farms, and towards community solutions. Or, we need to allow permits for nuke
powered de-sal plants along the shorelines and allocate the coastal deserts as growing grounds to feed the worlds cities.
[Edited on 12-31-2011 by Islandbuilder]
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Mengano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cardon Man
Could you possibly be any more devoid of rational thought? |
You see, Cardon Man, you drew first blood. Everybody here is discussing their viewpoint in a rational manner, and then you jump in with a personal
attack on me, not the issues. Then, if I respond in kind to you, you and your ilk like Wilderone, go crying to Doug that I am disruptive.
You think you hold the high moral ground here, but you are just like an impetuous child, who being unable to hold up his end of a cogent argument,
resorts to name calling.
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