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desertcpl
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DK
is this Shell Island
http://www.facebook.com/ken.buckley.31#!/photo.php?fbid=4069...
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David K
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I looked at all the photos in that person's Facebook page and didn't see anything of Shell Island or close. What did you see?
Here are some photos and maps of Shell Island:
It is just sand... and the Sea of Cortez! It is our 'happy place' in Baja (or anywhere)!
[Edited on 11-30-2012 by David K]
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desertcpl
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I dont think the link worked for me
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
I dont think the link worked for me |
OK... in the aerial photo you posted above, that is the north tip of Shell Island in front of Rancho (Laguna) Percebu. In the last couple of years,
the two ends of the island have been dynamic (changing)... in the case of the north end, it has been extending further north and coming in closer to
Percebu.
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by desertcpl
I dont think the link worked for me |
OK... in the aerial photo you posted above, that is the north tip of Shell Island in front of Rancho (Laguna) Percebu. In the last couple of years,
the two ends of the island have been dynamic (changing)... in the case of the north end, it has been extending further north and coming in closer to
Percebu. |
That's a good old fashion spit, which change constantly, David. This is what you've been holding up as "proof" that global warming is nothing more
than a liberal conspiracy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spit_(landform)
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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David K
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There is a salt flat behind the beach/ lagoon that does not shift or 'move'... It gets flooded by sea water during extreme high tides and storm
surges... in the 1960's.... and 50 years later still the same!
I also camp next to a sand dune on the island, with brush on the dune that is still the same distance in elevation from high tide... almost 40 years
at the same place.
The north and south tips of the island do change from moving sand, and if anything the above photo shows the sand spit island is growing... so using
that logic, the sea levels are dropping! The beach does indeed move (some homes have been lost in the area), but the sea level is the same. 
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Bajatripper
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
There is a salt flat behind the beach/ lagoon that does not shift or 'move'... It gets flooded by sea water during extreme high tides and storm
surges... in the 1960's.... and 50 years later still the same!
I also camp next to a sand dune on the island, with brush on the dune that is still the same distance in elevation from high tide... almost 40 years
at the same place.
The north and south tips of the island do change from moving sand, and if anything the above photo shows the sand spit island is growing... so using
that logic, the sea levels are dropping! The beach does indeed move (some homes have been lost in the area), but the sea level is the same. |
Yeah, I know, David, Global Warming is just a big ol' hoax. Don't know what the point of such a hoax would be, but then, one never knows what's on the
mind of those shifty liberals. Probably some gov'ment money in it for 'em.
There most certainly is but one side to every story: the TRUTH. Variations of it are nothing but lies.
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sancho
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Yeah, I know, David, Global Warming is just a big ol' hoax. Don't know what the point of such a hoax would be, but then, one never knows what's on the
mind of those shifty liberals. |
Don't mean to stray too far off, that's my thought also,
people GENERALLY have some MOTIVE promoting
a cause, in this case, if this is a hoax, I don't understand
what motive is behind the theory. Appears some people
are just Anti Science. I've walked out at a minus tide at
Percebu out to the sand Isle, is that the no. end
of Shell Isle?
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jbcoug
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One giant motive is the the concept of "cap and trade" carbon credits. For whoever controls that, it will be easier than printing money.
John
\"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person.\" Andy Rooney
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sancho
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajatripper
Yeah, I know, David, Global Warming is just a big ol' hoax. Don't know what the point of such a hoax would be, but then, one never knows what's on the
mind of those shifty liberals. |
Don't mean to stray too far off, that's my thought also,
people GENERALLY have some MOTIVE promoting
a cause, in this case, if this is a hoax, I don't understand
what motive is behind the theory. Appears some people
are just Anti Science. I've walked out at a minus tide at
Percebu out to the sand Isle, is that the no. end
of Shell Isle? |
YES, that is the north end of Shell Island, enjoy!
See jbcoug's reply for the motive, it is not science which is based on observations and measurements... Just follow the money and you will see a
bigger government sucking in more dollars and 'green' industry profits (or losses with government guarantees ie. our tax dollars)... and Al Gore's fat
pockets.
Not just in Baja, where I can go to the same high tide line and many places and still stand there above the sea level, nearly 50 years later... but
where I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's, in Del Mar... I lived on the beach, my street was then just a few feet higher than high tide, and it STILL
IS!
The beach/ shoreline moves, but the sea height is constant in our lifetime, and any change is tiny over 100 years. In a place where the sea level
rises 20 feet in 6 hours, every 12 hours, a few centimeters more over 100 years is not even noticed.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
The beach/ shoreline moves, but the sea height is constant in our lifetime, and any change is tiny over 100 years. In a place where the sea level
rises 20 feet in 6 hours, every 12 hours, a few centimeters more over 100 years is not even noticed.
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Tell that to the people of Kiribati.
The salt water intrusion is to the point where they can no longer grow crops. The entire population is now actively being moved to either New Zealand
or Fiji. I can't remember which.
The country is a series of atolls in the mid pacific. Most of us have heard of it from the battle of Tarawa during WWII. Some of the islands were used
for nuclear test sites by the british. Now this. An unfortunate people, they are.
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David K
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The islands of the Pacific were (many were) the tops of volcanoes and are ever so slowly 'melting' back down into the sea... the sea is very little
changed, even by global warming believers, at less than the length of a cigarette the past 100 years... so the natural and historical lowering of the
islands back into the sea is more likely the cause... Also, in your example, more people extracting fresh water than before, and just like in Baja,
salt water encroaches.
Even if sea levels rising was happening, it is a natural condition and there is little man can do to change what Nature has planned. I can show you
petrified sea shells that are hundreds of feet above sea level and that was many years before automobiles, trains, factories, power plants, and even
before man was here!
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Skipjack Joe
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A. The people of Kiribati get their drinking water from rainfall, not groundwater. The saltwater intrusion is occuring due to rising sea levels at
these islands.
B. You stated that the sea height is constant in our lifetime or insignificant. Not so. The people of Kiribati would not be
relocating if it were. To you it's insignificant. To them it's not.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Even if sea levels rising was happening, it is a natural condition and there is little man can do to change what Nature has planned.
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What Nature has planned?
You crack me up. You talk of Nature as if were a deity. You have merely replaced your object of worship with "Nature" and attributed to it the same
qualities. That is - Things are as they must be because that's "Nature's" Will.
[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Skipjack Joe]
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David K
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
A. The people of Kiribati get their drinking water from rainfall, not groundwater. The saltwater intrusion is occuring due to rising sea levels at
these islands.
B. You stated that the sea height is constant in our lifetime or insignificant. Not so. The people of Kiribati would not be
relocating if it were. To you it's insignificant. To them it's not. |
Igor, sea level is a standard measure point... Baja California and Kiribati are both on the Pacific Ocean... I can go to a place with a rock (not
sand) ground that is covered at high tide and uncovered at low tide, just as it was almost 50 years ago. If sea levels were rising, then this rock
ledge would be covered all the time and not just at high tide.
Sand Spits at El Requeson and Alfonsina's still connect with the islands at low tide... again, if sea levels were rising in our lifetime, those island
offshore would never again have the connection. Salt flats that are just inches above typical high tide... are still just inches above high tide.. 50+
years later.
Islands in the Pacific are sinking far more than sea levels are rising... natural erosion.
I have not been to the Republic of Kiribati, but I would love to go... I dig tropical places and islands... I hope I can see them before they sink
below the high tide line! In the meantime, I still have the coastline of Baja to enjoy, and I can still walk places along the same shore that I did in
the 1960's!
I am not a scientist, but I know what I have seen... and would take the word of someone on the sea coast with eyes wide open over someone in a
government office, thousands of miles away looking at manipulated graphs to give an answer that he was paid to give. Wouldn't you? 
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rts551
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
A. The people of Kiribati get their drinking water from rainfall, not groundwater. The saltwater intrusion is occuring due to rising sea levels at
these islands.
B. You stated that the sea height is constant in our lifetime or insignificant. Not so. The people of Kiribati would not be
relocating if it were. To you it's insignificant. To them it's not. |
Igor, sea level is a standard measure point... Baja California and Kiribati are both on the Pacific Ocean... I can go to a place with a rock (not
sand) ground that is covered at high tide and uncovered at low tide, just as it was almost 50 years ago. If sea levels were rising, then this rock
ledge would be covered all the time and not just at high tide.
Sand Spits at El Requeson and Alfonsina's still connect with the islands at low tide... again, if sea levels were rising in our lifetime, those island
offshore would never again have the connection. Salt flats that are just inches above typical high tide... are still just inches above high tide.. 50+
years later.
Islands in the Pacific are sinking far more than sea levels are rising... natural erosion.
I have not been to the Republic of Kiribati, but I would love to go... I dig tropical places and islands... I hope I can see them before they sink
below the high tide line! In the meantime, I still have the coastline of Baja to enjoy, and I can still walk places along the same shore that I did in
the 1960's!
I am not a scientist, but I know what I have seen... and would take the word of someone on the sea coast with eyes wide open over someone in a
government office, thousands of miles away looking at manipulated graphs to give an answer that he was paid to give. Wouldn't you?
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geeze, not that I buy into your nonsense, but where does all that displaced (from eroding islands) water go? duh
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rts551
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from wiki
"Between 1870 and 2004, Global average sea levels rose 17 cm.[5] From 1950 to 2009, measurements show an average annual rise in sea level of 1.7 ± 0.3
mm with satellite data showing a rise of 3.3 ± 0.4 mm from 1993 to 2009,[6] a faster rate of increase than originally estimated.[7] It is unclear
whether the increased rate reflects an increase in the underlying long-term trend.[8]
Two main factors contributed to observed sea level rise.[9] The first is thermal expansion: as ocean water warms, it expands.[10] The second is from
the contribution of land-based ice due to increased melting. The major store of water on land is found in glaciers and ice sheets."
and on and on
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David K
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Yes, about the length of 1.7 cigarettes... I will agree that is acceptable in that it is still unnoticable nearly anwhere one goes. This thread
started about Shell Island... and the ocean rises upwards of 20 feet or more, twice a day... less than 2 cigarettes higher is no threat, in Baja! 
Let's pray for Kiribati!
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
Sand Spits at El Requeson and Alfonsina's still connect with the islands at low tide... again, if sea levels were rising in our lifetime, those island
offshore would never again have the connection. Salt flats that are just inches above typical high tide... are still just inches above high tide.. 50+
years later.
Islands in the Pacific are sinking far more than sea levels are rising... natural erosion. |
Don't have much time for this.
Atolls don't sink. They grow. The only erosion is wave erosion and not much of that because they're surrounded by coral reefs. There isn't enough
height to generate runoff erosion. The corals are constantly growing upwards but not fast enough to keep up with rising sea levels. The land mass is
somewhere far below the surface. It's all coral from there on upwards.
You're contradicting yourself on the sand spits in northern baja. You stated that sand shifts but landmasses do not. That's true. That's why the sand
spits at Alfonsinas and Snoopy's Head will remain as the levels rise. They're formed because the wave energy is lost as they pass those islands. Once
the energy is lost the sediment that they're carrying is deposited. As long as there is an island close to shore between the cortez and the shore a
spit will remain. The sea level can rise all it wants, the spit will remain until the islands are submerged. Look all over baja. You will never find a
sand spit like that without an island at the end of it.
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Barry A.
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Oceans go up, and they go down-------Ice melts, and Ice reforms-------always has, and most probably always will. Sometimes fast, and sometimes
slowly-------depends ("it's complex") . The "science" is so necesarily
limited in scope that it "proves" little to nothing, in this case.
Don't hold your breath waiting for "man" to change that, no matter what he does.
Also, in addition to "island erosion", there is subsidence of the volcano's that formed many of the Pacific Islands, accounting for some of the
apparent variability of "sea level"..
What David says makes a lot more sense to me than other theories about this subject.
But, yes, the climate is changing--------what else is new?? Coasts are dynamic places.
Just my 2 cents.
Barry
on edit after Skipjacks comments--------actually, "land masses" are constantly changing, moving, raising and falling, but to us it is almost
imperceptible normally because it is so slow and miniscule unless a major earthquake occurs like the one a few years back in the Imperial and Mexicali
Valleys. We live on a dynamic earth where motion and change is the rule, not the exception.
[Edited on 12-5-2012 by Barry A.]
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