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rhintransit
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a rational response to the vehicle panic...
nobody knows. speculation is only that. I like this post from another forum:
Car Import Rules Under INM’s New Categories
Steven M. Fry - YucaLandia/Surviving Yucatan
go to original
February 23, 2013
There have been tons of rumors, suppositions and misinformation flying around on expat forums and blogs about what people think are the current Aduana
rules for temporarily imported foreign-plated cars/
Puerto Vallarta, Mexico - Yucalandia, a very informative blog about living in Mexico, just published an article regarding the changes to Aduana's
rules on the importation of foreign-plated vehicles under Mexico's new Immigration Laws, which we thought might be useful to our readers:
There have been tons of rumors, suppositions and misinformation flying around on expat forums and expat blogs about what people think are the current
Aduana rules for temporarily imported foreign-plated cars, a.k.a "TIP" (Temporary Import Permit) cars.
Here at Yucalandia, we like facts supported by the official rules and laws. Using that basis, let’s evaluate what is written in the current law and
official rules:
First: There are no Aduana rules or law that specifically cover how to issue or renew Permisos de Importación Temporal de Vehículos for foreigners
with either Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente IMN residency permits. ~ Zip / Zero / Nada ~
In the absence of any published law or rules, each local Aduana office is currently doing what they think makes sense - likely as decided by their
local director.
Second: The information recently presented by a few local Aduana personnel at Nuevo Vallarta meeting was NOT OFFICIAL, nor does it apply nationwide.
If we read their 2 Powerpoint presentations carefully, we find a number of factual errors, because they are NOT official nor legally-binding
documents. They are, instead, just informal non-legal presentations to try to help the local gringos understand how Nuevo Vallarta agents are
temporarily choosing to handle foreign-plate cars for gringos with the new INM Residency permits. The Nuevo Vallarta powerpoint Aduana presentation
was effectively JUST A SET of PROPOSALS, because there have been NO NEW OFFICIAL written policies or rules promulgated out of Aduana in D.F.
Local Aduana offices are given broad discretion and wide latitude in how they apply policies. In the absence of any new national policy: The Nuevo
Vallarta Aduana personnel are fully allowed to apply overly stringent local policies, while Puerto Vallarta Aduana personnel (who are approving some
TIP extensions) are fully allowed to grant very liberal local policies.
Third: All gringos whose INM permits have not expired, must really WAIT until there are formal policies/rules or a law written and approved by Aduana
D.F. The current Ley Aduanero uses out-dated, obsolete, legal terminology ("No Inmigrante" or FM3, and "Inmigrante" or FM2 and "Inmigrado") - so, the
old Aduana law terminology no longer fits the new INM residency permits and INM’s legal terminology. This leaves Aduana’s local offices with NO clear
detailed legal guidelines on vehicle Temporary Import Permits (TIPs) – so they are just TEMPORARILY making things up as they go.
Does Mexico Really Plan to Allow Residente Temporal and Permanente Residents to Only have Mexican Plated Cars?
Many gringos are trying to use individual local Aduana personnel actions as evidence to make logical sense of the national policies of 2 very
different and very separate Mexican Government agencies. There is no official information on what Aduana has planned for us. These problems were
created by INM dramatically changing the numbers and kinds and names of residency permits - which made Aduana’s written rules... obsolete, because
there is Zip / Zero / Nada equivalency between the old INM FM2, FM3, & Inmigrado permits versus the new INM Residente Temporal & Residente
Permanente permits.
INM has very different needs and different agendas than Aduana. There appears to be almost ZERO/zip/nada coordination between INM’s changing to new
policies (creating totally new immigration categories), and Aduana. The problems INM has caused to existing Aduana policies, makes it clear that they
did not coordinate policies with some intent to screw expats.
INM issued their new law in May 2011, and then issued totally new policies on Nov. 9, 2012. In the meantime, Aduana has issued ZERO/zip/nada official
adjustments to Aduana policies to accommodate the new INM rules => no coordination => no evidence of any plan => no evidence of any intent.
Some gringos are imagining that Aduana is "saying that the only cars they want legally in their country those cars that have a Mexican plate." There
is Zip/Zero/Nada official information to confirm this.
Really, we all must wait to see exactly what Aduana’s official national policy will be.
Aduana may allow our foreign-plated vehicles ... or they may not...
In the meantime, we only have various, individual, non-binding proposals being made by a few local Aduana offices.
History of How this Mess Evolved: INM’s FM3 and Aduana’s TIP program were originally created in response to a 1990's Mexican Government effort to
support the growth of maquiladoras/factories in Mexico to take advantage of NAFTA.
Aduana was told to create a permit that allowed American and Canadian manufacturing managers and experts to move to Mexico temporarily, and live and
work in Mexico temporarily... temporarily bringing-in their foreign-plated cars. The intent was a TIP with no final hard-and-fast expiration date, but
instead to create a flexible permit for business men and experts to come to Mexico – work a while – and return back to Canada or the USA.
After the TIP was created, (and the FM3), lots of US and Canadian retirees decided to use these temporary-businessman programs for their own purposes:
coming into Mexico to live effectively as permanent residents – often with NO intent to permanently return to the USA or Canada – and certainly not
intending to return their cars to the USA or Canada. The gringo retirees did this by filing for temporary residency and temporary auto import permits
in Mexico, even though their effective intent was to permanently leave the cars in Mexico.
The Mexican systems were not designed for how the Americans and Canadians used them. "Temporary" permits were intended to be temporary, for
businessmen to come and go easily, but because the Mexican Government did not anticipate the gringo retirees’ unintended usages when writing the FM3
and TIP rules, the rules were basically later used by gringo retirees as loopholes to avoid becoming permanent residents – and used by gringos as
loopholes to avoid paying duties to bring in the cars for what they really use as permanent importation.
The facts? Gringos wanted to bring their cars into Mexico and basically not ever take them out, without paying the import duties. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in
import duties. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in annual permit fees. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in annual registration fees nor getting plates. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in taxes -
all while liberally using the Mexican roads and services ... all for free. Free - A word gringos treasure...
Should we blame Mexican officials from later trying to clean up the mess of 10,000's of gringos who came into Mexico and stayed here using their
vehicles for free - free from unrestricted by pesky registrations, free from even reasonable import duties, free from getting new license plates – all
by simply using loop-holes in Mexican policy designed for truly temporary businessmen and manufacturing experts?
What are we left with now? Unfortunately, Mexican government policies change only very slowly, and since INM policy changes made Aduana TIP policies
obsolete: Aduana is taking a while to try to formulate a new policy. It is difficult to create a new policy where Canadians and Americans who really
come here as permanent residents can be shifted to actually allow their cars to be here for long periods (effectively permanent imports) - and to stop
scooting through the loophole of basically free temporary auto permits.
Canada and the US don'tt allow Mexicans to import their cars into Canada and the USA, and keep them there for free, especially Mexicans who want to
live there for more than six months or a year.
I am left asking: Why should Mexico offer something that the USA and Canada (and pretty much all other countries) prohibit?
Why should individual Americans and Canadians in Mexico, expect much free services and free usage of the roads, and expect more liberal treatment from
the Mexican Government, than they offer Mexicans who are guests in the USA and Canada?
Unfortunately, all governments change their policies and rules over time – and the rest of us are left to figure out what to choose from the resulting
options.
We have to wait until Aduana actually publishes something official.
Let’s all hope that Aduana comes out soon with official policies that work.
More information can be found at yucalandia.wordpress.com.
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[Edited on 7-3-2013 by rhintransit]
reality\'s never been of much use out here...
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chuckie
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Well, that clears it right up...
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DavidE
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Nice OPINION...
Where are the footnotes?
Where are the telephone numbers for contacts?
The ONLY people who matter are the ones manning the SSP Puestos de Controles. It is their decision and no one else's, heavy emphasis on the NO ONE,
whether you are in violation of the law and you exit your motor vehicle only to have it towed off to a CORRALON FEDERAL.
Yeah this makes the issue more complicated not less.
Solly Cholly, the ONLY people I trust are the ones in the office of ADUANA. They issue the TIPS, they make the rules, they tell the SSP what to do.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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MitchMan
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I saw that article a few days ago. Very enlightening. The point is that there exists no written on-point law that answers the question: "If I have
RP status, can I drive my current US Plated/Registered car/truck in the Baja?" The other point is that the local Aduana in Baja can and do make and
exercise policy however they see fit in the absence of on-point law.
The down to earth question is what are the police (state, federal, local) and Aduana in your vicinity in Baja actually doing today.
I see little comfort, although it is a significant factor, that the law is unsettled in this area. Apparently, that will not prevent the
police/aduana from confiscating your vehicle if they so choose at this time.
From the perspective that TIPs were made available with a view to handling things of a temporary nature ( within the set of written policy/law
referred to in the "regime temporal"), having "Residente Permanente" status (the operative term being "Permanente") may well not come under the
temporary regime rules at all.
Furthermore, it is reasonable to suspect that Mexico wants to deal with the abuse of temporary policies by foreigners who are actually practicing
permanent residency in Baja/Mexico. Disallowing an RP from driving foreign plated/registered vehicles in Baja/Mexico mainland makes sense and is
probably how this thing will fall out in the end...unfortunately for me.
In the long run, my only hope is that, in the Baja, being all Free Zone "prohibited property", maybe RPs will be treated differently here and be
allowed to drive and keep and drive their US plated/registered vehicles (in the Baja). After all, TIPs for foreign plated/registered vehicles are not
required in Baja.
I am wondering how this will turn out for boats (both under and over 4.5 meters in length) and boat trailers. Will/do the same treatments/policies
that apply to US plated/registered vehicles apply to using/having US registered/plated boats and their trailers in the Baja?
I am flying to La Paz next week on a fact finding mission. I fully expect to have to drive both my 15 year old Tacoma and my boat back to the USA.
[Edited on 7-3-2013 by MitchMan]
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Lee
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I'm grateful that the article had lots of paragraphs.
Can someone without ADD sum things up? 25 words or less will do. How about yes or no?
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MitchMan
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Lee,
Often times reality is in the gray area and cannot be resolved to either a flat yes or a no. Take the time to read the article carefully, do some
additional research on your own and then you see if you can give us a definitive "yes" or "no".
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DavidE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 12-1-2003
Location: Baja California México
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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The only thing that can possibly save your bacon in case of dispute is the name and telephone number of a local aduanero. I was stopped at a reten
outside of Salina Cruz Oaxaca, and the idiots did not recognize even the old law allowing the then FM-3 holders to drive their own vehicle even though
the 1980-day TIP had long expired.
The name and telephone number of the ADUANA in Lazaro Card##as, slowed them down. I handed them my cellular, they called and got their rear chewed
off. Peoples faces do not turn red for no reason. Cost me 40 minutes delay.
Once a car is towed to the corralon federal it is a nightmare to try and get back. I've heard of it being done but the last person I talked to that
actually got her car back told me it cost her 2,000 US in attorney fees. He car had been hit and run while parked 100' off a highway. It took the US
Embassy help to get it back. The cops impounded it.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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monoloco
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Since TIP was never necessary for Baja Norte or Sur, the article really doesn't have any relevance for Baja.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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Hook
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Silly me. Based on the subject line of the post, I was hoping for a rational response FROM THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT on this issue.
It bears keeping in mind that the introduction of the new Residente Permanente cards were about 18 months late in their actual introduction; based on
when the new requirements were passed by the Mexican Congress. Then came another six months of inconsistent policy statements from individual Aduana
offices.
Eighteen months plus six months!! And during all that time, Aduana and INM couldnt be bothered to get their heads together to formulate a definite
policy.
Still havent, apparently. So much is still up in the air.
The majority of people we know who are eligible for a RP are declining and going back to the tourist visas. Just much simpler and cheaper. Most leave
the country every six months anyway.
BTW, this CAN affect Baja holders of the RP card. Supposedly, you will not be allowed to drive your foreign plated vehicle outside the free zones;
including use of the ferries to areas outside the free zones.
[Edited on 7-3-2013 by Hook]
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MitchMan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
Since TIP was never necessary for Baja Norte or Sur, the article really doesn't have any relevance for Baja. |
I hope you are right, monoloco, but that is not all certain because the TIP was part of those rules that applied to temporary residency provided for
in that "regime" of law concerning temporary residency.
The fact that Baja was relieved of the TIP reflects a convenience to those of temporary visa status for the entirety of the Baja since Baja is all
Free Zone anyway. That would be in keeping with the intent of NAFTA to allow/encourage economic activity in the Free Zone between Mexico, USA and
Canada. The Free Zone is a special case as it is reasonable to expect that one would find more temporary residents close to a border and close to the
coast.
The tip was required in mainland Mexico because places inland and away from the border (i.e., non-Free Zone territory) would not see the same
proportion of temporary foreign workers there. So, TIPs were provided to squarely authorize temporary resident use of foreign plated vehicles in
areas where there is much less an expectation/proportion of such vehicle use.
But, again, the real question is whether "convenience" will be extended to RPs in the Free Zone of Baja.
Keep in mind that none of the following: FMM, FM2, FM3, No-Inmigrante, Inmigrante, Residente Temporal are considered "permanent" residents...they are
all temporary visa statuses. Residente Permanente is more and more, to me anyway, seen to be, well..."PERMANENT", that is, NOT temporary. Keep in
mind that "Inmigrante" is not/was not "Inmigrado" status.
I read recently in various writings and in one recent letter on SHP/SAT letterhead from the office of the Administracion General de Aduanas that
reflects Residente Permanene as equivalent to and as a replacement of the former "Inmigrado" status. Not good for those of us in the Baja with US
plated/registered vehicles, boats and boat trailers.
Man, I hope I am wrong about this.
[Edited on 7-3-2013 by MitchMan]
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DavidE
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Mood: 'At home we demand facts and get them. In Mexico one subsists on rumor and never demands anything.' Charles Flandrau,
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Keep in mind that FM2, and FM3 went the way of the Brontosaur. Technically if you are continuing with a Residente Permanente, you are not allowed to
drive an extraneous motor vehicle therefore not drive a Mexican placard vehicle with a non Mexican license.
It's only a matter of time. An extremist with a 500 megaton hydrogen bomb is not nearly as dangerous as SAT SHCP with a large computer data base.
A Lot To See And A Lot To Do
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ncampion
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Good information in the original post. My wife and I were recently turned down by local Loreto INM on our application for the RP card. At first we
were unhappy especially when we saw others with similar backgrounds getting RP cards (mostly through the use of third party "facilitators"). We went
ahead and applied for and received our RT card, good for two years. Now that I read about all the negative aspects of having the RP card, we are glad
that we did not get one. As far as we can see there is no actual additional value in the RP card over the RT. Oh, you might save a few bucks in not
having to renew each year, but big deal. Actually we're considering going back to the good old 180 day Tourist Visa when our cards expire. We live
in Baja about 9 - 10 months per year, but we do travel back to the US at least 2 - 3 times a year also. It’s not required for property ownership or
for any other reason that applies to us. I somehow think that having the RP card was mostly for "bragging rights" rather than tangible benefits.
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Alm
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
I somehow think that having the RP card was mostly for "bragging rights" rather than tangible benefits. |
Pretty much so. RP/RT is not required for property ownership, not to mention all those gringos living in "their property" on the land that they don't
own. People are building a "structura" on the camp lot, paying same annual fees as the guy next door living in a truck camper, not owning anything but
"structura". Though having a registered a car sitting next to the "structura" makes life TAD more comfortable - until that junk breaks down. On a
180-day FMT you are not supposed to leave anything in Baja, and some day they might start enforcing it.
Oh yeah, and there is also govt-subsidized Medicare (Seguro Popular) that people on 180-days FMT can't have but RP/RT can - not sure they are supposed
to, but this is a different matter. Though the benefits of having SP don't outweigh the danger of getting too relaxed relying on it.
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MitchMan
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A Mexican attorney told me that if you own real estate in Mexico and you only have an FMM, you have no standing to defend your title in Mexican courts
if someone challenges your title. Also, it is known that as a visitor with an FMM you cannot leave property that you own in Mexico when you leave the
country. Pretty much if you have an FMM and leave the country but you own real estate via a Fido or in Fee Simple in Mexico, you are obviously
leaving property behind.
As an RT, you can have your US plated vehicle and boat in Baja and drive with the vehicle with your US drivers license. If you suddenly switch to RP
status, you may have to take your vehicle and boat out of the country, get a Mexican drivers license and buy a Mexican plated vehicle. Or,
Nationalize your vehicle and boat and get a Mexican drivers license. YOu may still have to take your vehicle/boat out of the country to do that. All
that will cost thousands of US dollars. It even costs about $500 USD just to drive your vehicle or haul your boat from La Paz to the US border one
way (food, hotel, gasoline, phone calls). If you don't have it, when you take your vehicle into USA, you will have to pay for vehicle insurance if
you don't already have it, not to mention that you may have to get a some kind of DMV permit if your vehicle hasn't been smog checked in the last two
years. NOthing but hassle and momey.
However, if you simply get Residente Temporal, you don't have to do any of the above stuff. Huge difference in time, money and inconvenience.
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chuckie
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All this yada yada pretty much brings us full circle back to the issue I raised a while ago....What is the benefit, other than than the one up ability
to say I have an RP....? RP's carry with them a potential for unintended consequences. I wont get one....
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rts551
Elite Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckie
All this yada yada pretty much brings us full circle back to the issue I raised a while ago....What is the benefit, other than than the one up ability
to say I have an RP....? RP's carry with them a potential for unintended consequences. I wont get one.... |
At least before all the rules changed, Immigrado meant we had no more yearly trips to the immigration office and had nothing to do with up-mans-ship.
Our friends could care less what our immigration status is (we care more than they do). Ups-man-ship has more to do with posters on the internet.
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chuckie
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Hogwash.....
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rts551
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckie
Hogwash..... |
How would you know (unless you need a bath)?
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chuckie
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I sat next to you.....
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rts551
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Silly Chuckie.
My take after going through he process for years regardless of what the paper work is called.
Mexico issues paperwork intended for people who are Toursits. Tourists do not have property the intend to live in.
Mexico issues temporary resident cards to people who intend to live in Mexico part time.
Mexico issues paperwork for those that intend have demonstrated so that intend to live in Mexico full time...and have a pathway to citizenship from
there.
There are some people that do not like the process so they make their own rules.. Tourists who have a house. They are fine until Mexico decides to
enforce the law.
Many, like Chuckie, are betting that Mexico will not build the next border fence or check for immigration status at checkpoints on highways. Maybe
true....for a few more years.
Not Hogwash Chuckie, just experience you don't have.
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