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Author: Subject: Canadians in Loreto
Sharksbaja
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thumbdown.gif posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:14 PM


......gag......puke....thats all I can muster....:barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:
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JESSE
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:16 PM


All i know is that this current way of making both developers and the Mexican elite rich while leaving the general population to suffer in poverty cannot work for ever, it is not the fault of the developer if the Mexican politicians and the elite that owns them is selling everything to make a quick buck, but the people also have the right to not like the fact that everybody is making a buck and they are not, and little by little, they are losing their beaches, and find themselves living in poverty right next to mutimillion dollar homes.

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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:21 PM


The Villages of Loreto Bay is arguably the most important development in the world today. Many of this planets environmental and social heavyweights have converged to plan, design and build a truly sustainable village.

Those naysayers and blind critics on this board should embrace this development and support its cause, for the alternative is another Cabo and it nearly happened. Make no mistake, development will occur, the Mexicans want it as does the town of Loreto. Can we do it with respect for every life form that is currently there, the plan says yes, the execution requires trust and patience. I have a good measure of both.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:29 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
The Villages of Loreto Bay is arguably the most important development in the world today. Many of this planets environmental and social heavyweights have converged to plan, design and build a truly sustainable village.

Those naysayers and blind critics on this board should embrace this development and support its cause, for the alternative is another Cabo and it nearly happened. Make no mistake, development will occur, the Mexicans want it as does the town of Loreto. Can we do it with respect for every life form that is currently there, the plan says yes, the execution requires trust and patience. I have a good measure of both.


I wonder how many Mexicans are actually going to afford to live there, this is all about greed, money, and not much else.
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Sharksbaja
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:39 PM
who cares?


Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?
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JESSE
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:50 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?


Development has done nothing for the regular people of Baja, the more and more development, the more and more people from central Mexico move here, they bring their drugs, their violence, their high attitudes, and the people from Baja stay the same. Look at southern baja, or here in the so called "gold coast", you have a tiny minority of Mexicans making money, a lot of developers making money, and the people are the same.

If the developers truly where concerned about their customers and the locals, they would find ways to integrate the locals into the economy, not just use them as laborers. This rising crime wave is not stopping, and eventually, those nice beach houses full of elderly people are going to start looking plenty good for violent criminals, we are heading into a wall, and unless something changes fast, all those owners of those houses are going to find themselves living in gated, barbed wired, 24hr security prisons, unable to enjoy the Baja lifestyle we all love.

This is not good for us locals, or for you our guests, i would be very concerned about this if i was you.
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Sharksbaja
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 09:59 PM


I concur 100%. Sure, with all those people comes all the crap. When it comes to keeping up in the world, tourism is at the forefront for many poor, undeveloped countries. If it were possible to slow or plan development on a grand inclusive scale it wouldn't happen anyway. The money talks first and as all the land is filled in everyone forgets what they have been filling. Not to worry tho, 20 yrs from now nobody will know the difference.:(
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 10:38 PM


People, I understand your cynicism and you are entitled to your opinions, but your judgments about development and developers are based on your own biases and paradigms. Please consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, this time it will be different. Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan. As most of you know Mexico's financial structure does not permit collateral mortgages, so businesses and homes are built, brick by brick over time as money allows and many good business ideas and dreams remain just that...unmet and unfulfilled because of a lack of financing.

Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 10:44 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
People, I understand your cynicism and you are entitled to your opinions, but your judgments about development and developers are based on your own biases and paradigms. Please consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, this time it will be different. Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan. As most of you know Mexico's financial structure does not permit collateral mortgages, so businesses and homes are built, brick by brick over time as money allows and many good business ideas and dreams remain just that...unmet and unfulfilled because of a lack of financing.

Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay.


I am not saying all development is bad, but so far, what i have seen all over Baja is just awful, i hope that development is done as best for the community as it can, because if this company fails to take into consideration the local people, it will find that it will create an area where locals resent the new homeowners, violence and crime will surely follow, and who is going to want to buy more homes in a community like that.

By the way, i would pay very close attention to who ever controls that fund, i truly hope its not in the hands of a Mexican official.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 10:57 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Tell those great futurist people to help save the Sea. Why is it that what attracted people here in the first place will be the last to be addressed? I bet I know..............not nearly as much profit as common walls. Take a look at developed Islands all over the world. A big hook are all the water sports, si? I see zero to little participation by those huge concerns in promoting the health of Baja with its uncertain future. And I would happily argue the fact of how important that development is in the world. Important to who exactly?


To mankind and every living creature and plant form, to the future of this planet, to your kids and mine. To say Loreto Bay is a great experiment is a gross understatement. There are few places on earth where a concept this profound can be attempted and the remoteness of Loreto Bay is one. It has to be an area isolated from the destructive habits of man, where consumption and consumerism don't dominate, and where the car is not king.
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sad.gif posted on 3-9-2005 at 11:08 PM
THE NEW LORETO


I was in Cabo when they didn't even have the first hotel finished. Look at it now. Hate to see this happen to Loreto. If you want yo see all the : promo search www.discoverloretobay.com
Be sure an take a B**F BAG with you
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Sharksbaja
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[*] posted on 3-9-2005 at 11:22 PM
sustainability


Iam tring to envision this sustainability thing. I cant make sense of all this. What exactly does it mean and how does it play into the average Loreto citizens life. Big claims are being made to rest assure everyone that the project is giving back. Giving back what? A trust fund is just like a bank account. Do you already trust and know how the money will be spent. If you do a little math, you may find that figure does not factor in the administration costs which can be huge. It becomes hard to endorse these mega-projects as the real focus is on the bottom line like most biz. To say it isn't would be a terrific mistake. This is not Orlando, and not Canada and not Arizona. To group this project with the other "sustainable" projects the developers have undertaken would only fools the fools.

an excerpt from The San Diego Source;The Daily Transcript

His vision is taking shape nicely. Programs for sustainable energy, water generation and land stewardship are already in place, under the care of Vice President for Sustainability David Veniot, former head of EarthDay International, and consultant Bill Reed, founder of the Integrative Design Collaborative. These are heavyweights in the world of sustainability, who won't be content to simply preserve what is already here but are installing programs that enhance the environment by creating more energy and water than is consumed, and expanding the biodiversity of the region......


I'll believe it when I see it....
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 09:46 AM


"Friend" of Baja, you state: "Loreto Bay is committing one percent of all real estate sales and re-sales, and one percent of all gross rental revenue to a Community Trust Fund to be used for this very purpose. To date close to $1 million has already been deposited into this Trust Fund. This is but one example of the social conscience being applied to the Villages of Loreto Bay."

For starters, The formation of the Foundation was a condition precedent to the closing on the purchase of the land in Phase 1 of the Villages of LB Project. The 1% in perpetuity is part of a trust agreement with the Mexican government.

Furthermore, Fact: As of the Dec. 2004 Year End Report, the balance for the Fudacion Bahia de Loreto was $7,390. In 6 months time (Jun 04-Dec 04), they accumulated a balance of $70,129, had "expenses" of $54,769 and gave out two grants: one to Pro Peninsula for $5,000 so a few people could attend the Loreto Turtle Group meeting; and $2,900 to the Intl Ecotourism Society to develop a course in tourism. Doesn't sound to me like they're managing the funds very well, when over 70% of the income is spent on administration. I'd want to know how much money Butterfield skims out of that, or else, where is the expense money being spent. Another thing that might interest you is "The Foundation is in the process of becoming the concession holder to manage the Zofemat, the 20-meter strip of land upland from the high water mark, which will continue to be owned by the federal government. We believe that this strip of land will be best protected for the longer term if the Foundation rather than the developer controls it." Sounds to me like they're using this "Foundation" as a conduit for more purposes than philanthropic, and I doubt has anything to do with "social conscious."

There are so many things that make me ill about the Villages of Loreto Bay that I don't even want to think about it anymore. The damage has been done - the beautiful bay is GONE. FOREVER. Go ahead - live there in the narrow streets driving your electric golf cart, with f___ Canadians as your neighbors. I know I said I wouldn't post anymore about LB, but you all are just so ignorant.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 10:33 AM


I, for one, appreciate the factual material posted by wilderone. Everybody has opinions...but this project needs to be looked at by analyzing the facts, not the advertising hype.

And...I'm a little tired of hearing that somethng is o.k. because "the Mexicans" want it. There is NO monolithic "the Mexicans"...the government does not always have the social and environmental issues firmly in hand when money is on the table.

I don't think my (US) government represents my concerns and issues...so why would I think that the Mexican government represents all Mexican viewpoints?
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 11:04 AM
Friends of


when you say that the Mexicans are in favor of this project, I was wondering how you actually know that and if it includes all Mexicans here in Baja or just the ones selling the project.
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Sharksbaja
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 11:40 AM
life in Loreto








Thank you for the valuable input. It is very easy with a PR machine(no, not JR machine) to influence the masses. It is done time and time again. Anyone who thinks that what thay are hearing from the PR people is up to date and factual have another thing coming. Glossing over huge developments with promises of utopia are things my generation is accustomed to. We have witnessed the same scenario over and over. The end result: concrete, golf courses and people, rural people. Is this the way Baja is supposed to morph? Do we want it to look not unlike any other resort town? My question is simple. Why here? Becauce the Mexican Gov. chose it as one of their"chosen cities" to remake into a mecca for wealthy,lazy North Americans.


Friend of Baja said:
Quote:

To say Loreto Bay is a great experiment is a gross understatement. There are few places on earth where a concept this profound can be attempted and the remoteness of Loreto Bay is one. It has to be an area isolated from the destructive habits of man, where consumption and consumerism don't dominate, and where the car is not king.




Wilderone said:


Quote:

"The Foundation is in the process of becoming the concession holder to manage the Zofemat, the 20-meter strip of land upland from the high water mark, which will continue to be owned by the federal government.




Loreto Bay said:

"What you won't see at Loreto Bay is condos on the beach, cars zipping in and out of traffic, or beach vendors. What you will find is an 8,000-acre seaside community along three miles of beachfront When completed, Loreto Bay will feature 6,000 homes constructed primarily of adobe block, arranged in pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods, plus a beach club, specialty spas, golf courses, boutique hotels, a sport fishing center and marina, and a vibrant town center with restaurants, shops, galleries and entertainment venues.
Five thousand acres will be set aside for a green land preserve for recreation and agriculture, including organic farming.
Early entry pricing has attracted buyers interested in vacation or retirement living in a destination focused on health, fitness and sustainability. More than 200 homes have been sold to owners from California, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, British Columbia and Alberta".

I believe that the'Foundation for Sustainability" is one and the same as the developer. Do you see a difference between this so-called "earth friendl" developments and any other grand scale projects to attract people from cooler climates. This is not so special or different in my book!
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 11:58 AM
Every travel board has points and counterpoints


But lets face it kids, the groundwork was already in and scraped with streets ALREADY in. "ALREADY IN". That's a huge start for getting the ball rolling. Now as we all know getting things started in good ol Mexico requires time...manana is the most utilized word. Would you prefer some grandioso developer building gargantuan hotels all along the 3 miles of bay? A big no bueno on that one? Well for me what they have planned and I do mean planned because it's going to be developed whether you like it or not, I like what I hear and so did everyone else at the Seattle seminar. Hey people can say whatever they want and do whatever they want afterwards, just look at politicians, but I believe this will be an awesome thing if and when it's steaming along. With all the retail planned and the employment for locals I think it will really have a positive benefit. So for the benefit of all the negative souls on this board and we all know every travel board has the usual live in flamers, I will see first hand next week what's on tap. I plan to turn over every rock for information and go into town to see the other side of Loreto. So flamers have at it. Nobody wants change when they have been in their comfort zone but it is inevitable.....just hope it will bring good and not another Cabo San Pucas. Granted there is big bucks to be made but there is also the opportunity to something so different that it will do nothing but help out tremendously the economy of Loreto making that usual line of distinction between wealth and poverty more of a past tense for the locals....show em the money as the owners will frequenting the local businesses and restaurants and sports activities. Like the old saying "You can give a fish to a man and he can eat for a night or you can teach him to fish and he can eat for a lifetime....something like that anyhoo.



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Get EVEN.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 12:08 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by friend of baja
Your point about the locals being left behind economically is valid and believe me this point has not been lost on David Butterfield and Jim Grogan.


Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 12:33 PM
Developers.........


Whatever their other contributions to our society, developers could be an important source of protein.



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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 12:54 PM


Quote:
Quote

Oh really, then why don't they do something creative, like a percentage of Loreto Bay units set aside as low income housing with sales only to local Mexicans? Hey, if we can do a proportion of low income housing in overinflated Marin County developments, I don't know why they can't do it there.

I guess they don't want the authentic Mexican Village of Loreto Bay cluttered up with Mexican families...at least not after they[ve finished cleaning the houses.


Elizabeth is right. also where are all those rich people going to git there pet Mexican servants slaves and Gardeners if they don't provide something for them to live in. what are they going to give back to the community? nothing just another gated community for the rich to sit around in and pity the poor. it makes them feel so much more wealthy when they can look over the fence and see people living in cardboard shacks.




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