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Cliffy
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Posts: 993
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Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  | Cliffy: You make a lot of assumptions there. There is very simple reasoning behind my wanting to support emerging technologies to replace the coal
fired thermal plants I began my career in. They are cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The trips i talked of in my EV are 220 mile round trips and
we do them about once per week on average.
So we save about 87% in energy cost every time we make the round trip. The braking is 80% energy recovered (in the city i seldom use the brake pedal
to come to stops at red lights, almost never to slow to make turns) and the maintenance costs over all are much much cheaper as the motor is far less
expensive and simpler than the gas engine it replaces. Performance wise it accelerates about 30% faster than the gas vehicle. The batteries have a
250,000 mile usable life expectancy, about the same as a gas engine vehicle and are 95% recyclable. I am taking about a 6 year old design here. There
just isn't any downside and they keep improving, the latest from BYD can be recharged in only 5 min at the newest hi speed chargers due to their
battery design improvements.
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I don't doubt the advantages you cite are there for EV cars Its just they are not for everyone.
I tow a lot- boat and travel trailer. EV doesn't work too well for that
I find waiting 20 to 45 mins for a charge along the road to be something I'm not interested in doing,
I can go 600 miles before I need to refuel and be done in less than 10 minutes.
Again I have to say- for an "individual" car owner it may be a perfect fit
Now scale that up by 100 million and the detractions to the technology become apparent. Supply lines for the chargers, commonality between chargers
to fit each make car, where is all that power going to come from, where does the power come from for their manufacture (from cradle to grave) all
these questions are tossed aside in the mantra for EVs.
Let just focus on the mining of minerals for just the batteries. Where will all the mines be if we scale up 100 million times?
How much dino juice will it take to bring the ore to the smelters?
How much dino juice will it take to smelt the ore?
How much dino juice will it take to get the refined product to the battery manufacturer?
Now the kicker- Have there been ANY new mines allowed on US soil in the last decade for battery minerals at a scale big enough to supply a massive
increase in demand?
This is just one of the hurdles that proponents of EVs avoid talking about.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19385
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | | Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck | Cliffy: You make a lot of assumptions there. There is very simple reasoning behind my wanting to support emerging technologies to replace the coal
fired thermal plants I began my career in. They are cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The trips i talked of in my EV are 220 mile round trips and
we do them about once per week on average.
So we save about 87% in energy cost every time we make the round trip. The braking is 80% energy recovered (in the city i seldom use the brake pedal
to come to stops at red lights, almost never to slow to make turns) and the maintenance costs over all are much much cheaper as the motor is far less
expensive and simpler than the gas engine it replaces. Performance wise it accelerates about 30% faster than the gas vehicle. The batteries have a
250,000 mile usable life expectancy, about the same as a gas engine vehicle and are 95% recyclable. I am taking about a 6 year old design here. There
just isn't any downside and they keep improving, the latest from BYD can be recharged in only 5 min at the newest hi speed chargers due to their
battery design improvements.
|
I don't doubt the advantages you cite are there for EV cars Its just they are not for everyone.
I tow a lot- boat and travel trailer. EV doesn't work too well for that
I find waiting 20 to 45 mins for a charge along the road to be something I'm not interested in doing,
I can go 600 miles before I need to refuel and be done in less than 10 minutes.
Again I have to say- for an "individual" car owner it may be a perfect fit
Now scale that up by 100 million and the detractions to the technology become apparent. Supply lines for the chargers, commonality between chargers
to fit each make car, where is all that power going to come from, where does the power come from for their manufacture (from cradle to grave) all
these questions are tossed aside in the mantra for EVs.
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Cliffy,
Not everyone tows a putt putt, and needs to drive a fullsize pickup to Safeway to pick up high fiber supplements for our irritable bowel. I sometimes
ride my bicycle to the store to get milk, just because it keeps me from being fat and old.
Re your panic about chargers, how can you deal with your household gadgets, cameras and phones that have a dozen different chargers? You would
probably experience a panic attack if you saw my kitchen drawer that probably still has an old charger for a nokia flip phone 
Woke!
Hands off!
“Por el bien de todos, primero los pobres.”
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Pronoun: the royal we
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JDCanuck
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Posts: 2079
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Cliffy: I can only speak for my area where our power comes almost exclusively from hydro dams at 97% renewable overall, which makes it fairly cheap.
Quebec and New Brunswick presently export power to the upper US East Coast at wholesale prices just above .04 per kwh...cheaper yet and also primarily
hydro sourced. I have no idea where the US manufacturers of LiFePO4 batteries get their lithium from as China very busily tied up the majority of
global mines producing it and that may be one of the reasons their LiFePO4 batteries are so much cheaper. 5 min recharges won't be a big problem, I
think you missed that one. As for heavy duty trucks with longer distances, BYD this past year grew their global EV haulers sales by over 1100%, so
quite a few people must find them attractive. It's hard to keep up as they are improving faster than I ever thought they would.
But here's a link for April sales figures:
https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/03/byd-commercial-truck-sa...
The only BYD plant presently in the US is n Lancaster and employs about 500 unionized employees manufacturing a range of bus styles for the US and
Canada markets. It might be worthwhile to get them to add a passenger/commercial vehicle plant considering their expertise and range of choices
https://cleantechnica.com/2025/05/09/byd-electric-truck-sale...
[Edited on 5-12-2025 by JDCanuck]
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PaulW
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Posts: 3103
Registered: 5-21-2013
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JD Canuck
Did you know that LFP batteries and more lithium than NMC batteries.
The reason LFP batteries are cheaper does not have to do with lithium content.
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 993
Registered: 12-19-2013
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Cliffy,
Not everyone tows a putt putt, and needs to drive a fullsize pickup to Safeway to pick up high fiber supplements for our irritable bowel. I sometimes
ride my bicycle to the store to get milk, just because it keeps me from being fat and old.
Re your panic about chargers, how can you deal with your household gadgets, cameras and phones that have a dozen different chargers? You would
probably experience a panic attack if you saw my kitchen drawer that probably still has an old charger for a nokia flip phone Text
Agreed that it is not for everyone just as I have said For some it is a perfect fit. The problem comes in when we scale up. Not against the
technology just the implementation ramifications and reasoning.
Why make it regulatory and mandate acceptance if it is such a good idea?
Why mandate it and not address the down the road costs to implement it?
Chargers ? I'm referring to to electrical supply lines for all the chargers when scaled up 100 million times - the power has to come from somewhere
and our current supply grid is not big enough to supply that amount of power Physics again.
To make a dent in the car market you will need 100 million EVs as there are about 300 million registered vehicles in the US alone.
Hydro power is great BUT when was last hydro dam built? In the USA we are tearing down dams.
As to another question I posed years ago- Can anyone find a report from ANY windmill field operator that shows on a daily basis the generating LOAD
produced by each windmill year round? Combine that with a report showing produced power vs designed power limit (how much electricity does a field
produce compared to how much it was designed to produce ((by the hour year round)). Just how efficient is a windmill field? Does anyone really have
accurate facts except internal documents kept by the field operators?
I've been looking for years for such info and it just isn't published.
How much does each windmill actually produce year round?
How about efficiency-
Are we producing lots of WHs of power with very inefficient generators there by just supporting a manufacturing process rather than the design goal-
to lower world emissions?
What is the emissions footprint of the manufacturing process for windmills?
From cradle to grave. How will we get rid of all those blades?
Does anyone know? Just more unanswered questions-
now scale it up a million times!
Physics again - where do we put all these windmills? Al Gore doesn't want one in his back yard either.
Has anyone here ever flown across the USA low enough to see all the windmills and how they detract from the landscape? I have many times.
Now follow the same thought process as above for solar panels and scale it up a million times- does no one see a problem here?
Not really against the ideas just no one addresses the bigger picture down the line- the physics involved to scale up to what is being pushed
Its treated as a laissez-faire attitude by everyone when its the gorilla in the room.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 2-22-2020
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Cliffy: My apologies but I just can't answer your questions as fast as you ask them. You will just have to do your own research. Heres my experience
on EV's: It costs long term with no rebates less than 50% for ten years or 150,000 miles to run an EV compared to my gas vehicle. Breakeven comes at
around 3 years with the present new cost differentials factored in, immediately if you buy a 2-3 yr old one as they depreciate far faster due to
technological changes.
A solar powered 5 bedroom 2800 sq ft fully electric home with backup gas generator in Baja and capable of delivering on average 60KWH per day of power
for a 5 bedroom fully electric home and 30kwh battery storage and 2 1/2 tons of air conditioning would cost you today an extra 30,000 dollars
professionally installed and take up 1000 sq ft of roof space for panels. No costs to run power lines or poles to an off grid home and no worries
about the grid going down.
Amazon can likely tell you all the reasons why they are converting to electric delivery vans, and transit systems why they are converting to electric
buses globally. My guess is they are cheaper long term and enhance their profits.
Utilities are shutting down coal fired plants and replacing them with windmills because they are cheaper to install and operate for the power they
produce than any other alternatives and they make more money with them long term. Our company began installing theirs 40 years ago and they are still
producing power. They could probably tell you why they did it if you called them.
[Edited on 5-13-2025 by JDCanuck]
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 19385
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
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To answer a few of cliffy’s silly questions…
Utility-scale wind and Pv generation is lower cost energy than gas, oil or coal plants.
EVs charged from the grid are more efficient energywise than ICE.
The rivian electric delivery vans are great. Talking to my local amazon drivers, they all love the vans.
Renewable energy is the future. Quit complaining about it.
Average unsubsidized levelized cost of electricity in the United States. With increasingly widespread implementation of sustainable energy sources,
costs for sustainable have declined, most notably for energy generated by solar panels. Cheapest source of fossil fuel generation is double the cost
of utility-scale solar. Solar levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) has fallen to $29 to $92 per MWh, said a report from Lazard.
for Cliffy's light reading:
https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-...
[Edited on 5-13-2025 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
Hands off!
“Por el bien de todos, primero los pobres.”
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Pronoun: the royal we
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