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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by luckyman
| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
One thing to remember about that irrigation water is that it is heavily subsidized by the taxpayers. The farmers in the central valley have made
millions thanks to the fact they have received water at a fraction of the true delivery costs. Another example of corporate welfare.
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federal water projects (storage and conveyance) have made california what it is today, for better or worse, including the incredible farming industry
we have.
this comment, as well as most of your subsequent posts on the subject, leads me to believe you are uninformed and left-biased on the subject of
farming today. perhaps you would enlighten us on how the average urban dweller might grow sufficient food and fiber to feed the family...start by
tearing up your driveway and buying a shovel and hoe. |
...Community gardens where there is vacant land. But beware of any idea that begins with the word commun.... It scares the b'jesus outta some
folk.
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
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Loco; A Typical day in a Farmers/Diarmans Life.
Milking twice in a 24 hour Period; Bringing the Cows into the Barn , locking their Heads in, giving them Grain, Washing off the Teats, connecting the
Milkers, with chit dropping all over you.
Try that for one Day. Then let me know what YOU think about Farming.
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luckyman
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 12-19-2007
Location: near chico, ca
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i'm all for community gardens, farmers' markets, and buying local...all things that promote self sufficiency and family owned/operated farming.
i would pay the 'true' cost, whatever that is, for an acre foot of water, provided i could pass that cost on to the consumer in the price of my
product, but that's never going to happen. no matter what size farm you have, farming in california is a difficult way to make a living, but one some
of us have chosen.
we have to ask ourselves 'where do we want our food to come from?'...if the answer is 'safeway' or 'albertson's' and we're fine with that without any
accountability as to country of origin, then the outlook for farming in california or the USA for that matter looks pretty bleak. i've run the gamut
from selling tomatoes at farmers' markets 25 years ago to selling produce to one of the stores mentioned, and i can tell you that the average store
shopper has no idea what is involved in getting that product to the shelf...worse yet, they really don't care as long as the price is right and it's
there when they want it, which 99% of the time it is.
so...the comments about 'subsidized' water rub me the wrong way, especially when they come from folks whose experience with california agriculture is
limited to a 70 mph observation driving down I-5.
gotta go, i've got trees to prune, but thanks for the opportunity to comment.
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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Luckyman, You never answered my question of how it is a conservative principle for the government to subsidize agriculture.
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luckyman
Junior Nomad
Posts: 60
Registered: 12-19-2007
Location: near chico, ca
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| Quote: | Originally posted by monoloco
Luckyman, You never answered my question of how it is a conservative principle for the government to subsidize agriculture. |
loco, i didn't realize you had posed the question, but since you have, i think, i'll give it a shot.
a little background first...i farm primarily tree crops, none of which have anything like a subsidy program, unless you count the 'welfare water' i
buy each year, if it's available, from the local irrigation district that supplies two of the five orchards i farm. for comparison, my district water
runs about $85.00 per acre on those blocks, where i pump water from a well, it runs about $130.00 per acre per year.
to your question, i'm assuming you're talking politics when you say 'conservative', not conservation, as in recources....
i think dems and repubs alike support the ag programs when there's voters in their districts that benefit from them, so both parties are responsible
for their longevity. i'm not much in favor of price supports and direct payments to growers.
as i understand the farm bill programs, they were developed in the early 30's by hoover and later fdr to stabilize both the price and the supply of
basic ag commodities, such as corn, wheat, rice, milk, and a few others. i'm not in favor of the basic premise of regulating price and supply, i
think that's the market's job. as i mentioned earlier, i grow crops that don't have government programs involved in pricing and supply...some years i
do well, other years i loose my ass as the price and supply changes...that's capitalism for ya.
i do sometimes wonder how the markets and society would fare during times of scarcity without government programs that keep wheat farmers growing
wheat even though that year's wheat price is below the cost of production. would a loaf of bread be ten bucks in the store? would boatloads of grain
bought by the US government continue to go to UN camps, or would they go to the highest bidding country? would we fight over food instead of oil?
would i push out prune trees and grow wheat instead?
back to the hijacked thread to which i originally responded...your contention that affordable irrigation water amounts to welfare is pure pelosi. the
reservoir stored water isn't just for agriculture, it's for recreation, drinking, and keeping rivers that used to run dry in the summer flowing year
round for the benefit of fish and fishermen alike. your subsequent comments on rice water usage (uninformed), farming in arid climates, and citing
data collected by a likely biased environmental working group, all lead me to believe that you have a larger agenda at hand that you're not
disclosing. what is it, and why the chip on your shoulder toward agriculture?
anyhow, back to your question. i'm not sure if i've answered it or not. if we were to play a word association game, and you were to say "welfare", i
would be more likely to say "liberal" than "conservative"...does that answer it?
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monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
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Luckyman, Thanks for the response. I too was a farmer and grew peaches and produce. From my perspective federal subsidies are what killed small family
farms I know all too well how hard it is to compete on price with huge subsidized farms. The federal government paid for all these federal water
projects, I don't see why it is asking too much for farmers to pay the true cost of distribution. California and Arizona water regulations have been
abused for years by large corporations. There is absolutely no way precious water resources should be used to grow crops like cotton and rice in the
desert. The only reason that is profitable is because of federal subsidies. I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder about agriculture and my only
agenda is the truth about federal subsidies that they mainly benefit large corporations to the detriment of family farms. Personally I don't believe
that government should subsidize any industry, if they can't make a profit without subsidies then they shouldn't exist. As far as liberal and
conservative, those are just polarizing labels. I don't think I know anyone whose views could be considered 100% liberal or conservative. I am for
efficient markets, I don't know if that is a conservative or a liberal view and I don't really care.
[Edited on 12-7-2009 by monoloco]
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