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Crusoe
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Cajhawk......Can you please tell us why we need more golf courses in Loreto? thanx ++C++
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capt. mike
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CAjhawk - are you a KU alumni? ROCK CHALK!!
i like your points here - fair and balanced.
no one likes to wait for a Tee time.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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Don Alley
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| Quote: | Originally posted by cajhawk
This is what I know about the discussion thus far. Many good points are being made here, but I wanted to clarify the stuff I thought was just
inaccurate. The good news is that at least it is only one developer for that big area instead of 3 or 4 -- now THAT is a nightmare!
[Edited on 8-28-2007 by cajhawk] |
Loreto Bay, 5,000 units.
Villas Groups, 2500 units
San Bruno Paraiso 6000+ units
Golden Beach
...and a "Master Plan" allowing for much more.
Just thought I'd clarify some stuff I thought was just inaccurate.
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wilderone
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Thanks for your input. You proceed on the premise that "Ex pats hate that developer changes their slice of heaven. Developer makes promises. Ex Pats
think all of the promises are lies, developer doesn't fulfill all promises." You are totally missing THE POINT. Which is that we opposers of LB
believe this region of Baja - as with many very special regions in Baja - should be left alone for the intrinsic benefit of its naturalness for
everyone - expat, citizen and future generation and future tourist - to enjoy. The LB project is too large to make sense. And LB does lie.
"LB is not going to drain all of the water in Loreto." Says you? oh - ok, then.
And you have not addressed the POINT of an uneeded golf course which will become more and more salt laden, use pesticides - all which will flow into
the estuaries and the gulf because where else would all that salt and toxin build-up go?
And of course they don't want a PR nightmare. Why wasn't an RO facility part of the INITIAL PLAN? WHY? Because it wasn't. Speaks volumes.
"The good news is that at least it is only one developer?" Are you kidding? They plan 6,000 units - a village - a 5-mile footprint along a
coastline - urban sprawl - couched with "sustainable" lies. Such utter crap.
Mike - I thought you didn't care - fair and balanced? HA! go away.
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cajhawk
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Rbuttal
I knew I'd catch some flak for my post. I DO understand the point that you are making, but you are also agreeing with me. You don't want ANY project
there at the site of Loreto Bay. That isn't going to happen, mainly because FONATUR put in the infrastructure that is there now. You can definitely
argue about scope and planning, but it will be built at some point just due to inertia.
The golf course was already there, so the remake of the golf course is not a NEW golf course per se. I don't think Baja needs another golf course, but
they are only changing one that is currently there.
The RO wasn't part of the original plan because FONATUR declared that there was enough water for almost 200,000 people in Loreto in the aquifer. That
isn't LB's fault; that was the hydrologist's report that worked for FONATUR.
The "area" I referred to was LB, not all of Loreto. Once again if you think 3 huge projects are a nightmare, try 4 or 5 developers at EACH of those
sites. I have no crystal ball, but I would be surprised if Fadesa's project ever comes to fruition. Spanish companies have a long history of promises
and no action in Mexico. The Villa Group on the other hand South of town has a distinct possibility.
IMHO I believe that if you put down everything about the LB development that your concerns get trivialized as just another NIMBY or CAVE (Citizen
Against Virtually Everything). LB is being built, so work to make it better for Loreto at this point. You can't turn back the clock.
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flyfishinPam
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Thank you for your perspectives they are appreciated and help me to understand things and question things too. That is good.
| Quote: | Originally posted by cajhawk
1) FONATUR said that there was plenty of water for LB. LB either doesn't believe them, doesn't want a PR nightmare or needs a secure water supply
because they have planned and are bidding on an RO project. Similar to ones in Cabo, these are about the size of a railroad car. LB is not going to
drain all of the water in Loreto. It would be a nightmare for them to sell their homes even if you think they are evil. |
Do you care to add your three centavos on the fact that the new development to the north has directed the pipes from the aquafer directly to their
project, San Bruno the FADESA project?
Don´t you think when you consider ALL of the proposed projects combined that our water table WILL definately suffer?
Here´s what I am concerned about : the San Juan Londó aquafer dries up (or worse, see water issues in a March thread by Don Alley), we have to go to
De-sal, great.... then
who´s going to pay for it?
How will it be built and how much power will it require?
Where will the waste be deposited?
How much will the water cost to the people of town?
Do you know that is is a FACT not an estimate that for every built unit or room (from statistics of Las Cabos and Cancun), that
TWENTY Mexican persons come into the area to support it?
Lets do the math JUST for Loreto Bay:
(from the journal La Jornada: "Loreto Bay Company, de capital canadiense, fue la primera en tomar la palabra a Fonatur, con un proyecto de mil 600
cuartos de hotel, 6 mil 374 viviendas, 4 mil 571 villas residenciales, campo de golf, marina, spa, centro de pesca deportiva, restaurantes e
instalaciones comerciales, recreativas y culturales." thread and link to article here => http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22961&pag...)
OK back to the MATH for >Loreto Bay: from the above article in La Jornada the completed Loreto Bay will have 600 hotel rooms + 4,571 villas + 6,374
houses = 11,545 units...now multiply that by 20 and you get 230,900 new persons in Loreto, plus those apready here,
plus those who will come as a result of other projects.....final number is anyones guess.
Have you ever been to Loreto? ever spend time here?
If the answer to these questions is yes then how the heck can you say with a straight face and truthfully that this kind of economic
stimulation is good for this municipio? our natural resources cannot sustain it and neither can our man made infrastructure including electric,
sewer, streets, medical, etc.
Always remember that Loreto Bay is planning for their "sustainable" village only and they are not considering the additional 230K+ persons
that will be residing nearby to support their "sustainable" village.
Yes the water issue is the biggest problem and is among other problems that growth creates. The water issue will become news that is important for
future investors to consider and hopefully this important fact will overshadow the propogandist "news" that´s being fed to you north
of the Mex border now.
To those in favor of this project I have no disrespect for your motives but please take a look into the future, when there will literally be nowhere
for the workers that will support your lifestyle to live, when there will be not enough accessable water (this is already a reality), when there will
be insufficient infrastructure to support this population. The ordinary people will suffer, their jobs will be low paying service industry jobs and
there will be very little opportunity for the majority of them. How long do you think the people will continue to live this way? Another thing to
consider is the history of Mexico, all investors should read it and understand their risks.
| Quote: |
2) Wind farm on west coast is not being done by Loreto Bay. They are a big player, but some energy company is doing it (Conergy?)with the backing of
other municipalities as well. LB will be a big customer, but is building it. Both LB and Conergy are also Mexican Corporations, so the lease talk
doesn't make much sense. |
I am not up on energy produced by wind farms and have not had time to do the calculations required for me to understand the input and output of energy
produced by the same equipment they are planning, but..
Can a wind farm sustain not only a village of say 10,000 but the city next to it and its outlying areas of 250,000+ persons?
Is this possible, how much will this equipment cost and how large a farm will be required?
What will be the difficulties of getting this power to the eastern side of the peninsula where the demand is?
Is there really a constant, year round supply of wind to generate the required electricity that will be able to sufficiently supply Loreto as well as
LB and the other development projects being planned?
Who will pay for a wind farm that can generate enough electricity to not only supply the "sustainable" village but its environs which support
most of the population placing the demand?
I do know that it is a fact that in Loreto we get brown outs severtal times a day and blackouts of at least several minutes on a daily basis. This
was wreaking havoc on my electronics until I put UPS backups on ALL of them. When I moved here in 1999 we had blackouts only when a car hit a power
pole or once in awhile when there was too much demand on the system in the summer, and of course during and after weather events which is
understandible, but since this project has started electrical outages have increased tremenoudsly and they´re really only in building stages now.
So who pays for my dead appliances??
I´ve replaced mine but can my Mexicano neighbors do the same so easily?
| Quote: |
3) Paspalum grass is the only way to go if you have a golfcourse going on in Baja. Less water, takes brackish water, less pesticide (salt water kills
some of them). Not quite as nice as the grass used on courses in Cabo, but much better for water use. New course in San Felipe using it now as well.
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I have no problem continuing with the excisting golf course as it was here for decades but please remember it was hardly ever watered and was brown
more often than green so the demand on the water supply for it was very minimal.
As for the Paspalum grass I think this is another on the long list of propoganda tools being used by LB.
A link for this miracle groundcover => http://www.paspalumgrass.com/
funny now the last time I read over that link there were temperature, humidity, rainfall and pH tolerances listed and they´re no longer there. Here´s
another link with these specs =>
http://www.fao.org/ag/agP/agpc/doc/Gbase/data/pf000288.htm
while I won´t go into detail, when looking through the list of specs for this species note those listed for, high temperature range, saline tolerance
(everything I am seeing says it is saline INTOLERANT), pH levels, pests, diseases and one that I find interesting Fertliizer Requirements: "Paspalum
needs high fertility and responds to a basic complete fertilizer mixture and subsequent dressings of nitrogen"
This grass will perform no better than the bermuda grass that it is replacing. Neither of these grasses is a native species. I read the link for
this grass that was supplied earlier in the thread and I believe that my training allows me to read and understand fully the performance of this
grass. It will require more water than the specs Loreto Bay will present and it will require more insecticides, more fungicides and more fertilizers
simply because it will be in an extreme environment for its tolerance levels. Please go and read for yourself I am not making this up.
You see LB feeds us these little "news" clippings to prove how wonderful a project they are and to make you feel good and put the idea into your head
to buy their product. another example of this is the dehumidifer machine press release "water from the thin air" that can´t even out perform a 1 ton
mini split air conditioner that costs less than 1/4 of its price heres the link to that thread http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=25587, and the "rebuilding of an estuary" that was maybe there a few centuries ago and has since
been buried by storm activity. This will have absolutely NO circulation when complete and can become a potential health hazard in the future...know
what the LB ingineros call this place? not Agua Viva but Dengue Row!
| Quote: |
This is what I know about the discussion thus far. Many good points are being made here, but I wanted to clarify the stuff I thought was just
inaccurate. The good news is that at least it is only one developer for that big area instead of 3 or 4 -- now THAT is a nightmare!
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Thanks for your clarificastions they are appreciated but I just had to add my two cents as well, as a person who has lived here full time for many
years and has married, birthed two children in Loreto and has a business here.
If you look at posts in past years I was very much in favor of this project because the town of Loreto badly needed economic stimulation. At the time
LB was announced at a Hotel Association meeting, we had been already been hit by Hurricane Ignacio, then Hurricane Marty and Hurricanes Nora and Omar
almost collided directly over us. Humidity and heat levels throughout October were unprecidented and there was nowhere in town to buy mosquito
repellent. I lost a daughter in law who was eight and a half months pregnant to Dengue Hemoragic fever, baby was still born and until that point for
some reason the town had not been sprayed for mosquito abatement as it had in years past. Tourism was waaaay down. We had major airlines cancel
flights and businesses were closing left and right.
So I had no problem with a development project but I was a bit frightened by the scale which we were being told was going to be 4-5000 homes. Of
course the project just kept getting bigger and bigger. Then the water issue became a major turning point in my personal decision to act contrary to
large scale projects in our delicate area. No, I do not have an "unwillingness to accept change" attitude and I am not completely against development
only against irresponsible and deceptive development and sales.
For reasons stated earlier by Don Alley who said something to the affect of "Loreto is a small town without the experience to handle what´s coming our
way", this is very true. The fact is that for the most part the people of Loreto are not educated in such a way as to understand the consequences of
this growth. Their level of education generally does not go beyond the 6th grade. Its time to educate them. How could you expect a population to
make decisions without all the facts in front of them? How could YOU as a potential investor to this area make an informed, intelligent financial
decision without all of the information?
The people are mad, there´s feces running down the center of our streets and its been this way for months. They just don´t know what to do. They´re
used to broken promises and handouts of "bags of cement if you vote for our party".
Well I´ve typed enough, but this is from the perspective of a resident and her family and friends and neighbors of Loreto who will be and are directly
affected by these changes.
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flyfishinPam
Super Nomad
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testing. I just made a very long post and it disappeared. Even though it states I am the last to have made a post that post cannot be accessed!
thinking if I post this it will reset the system somehow.
this technique worked!
[Edited on 8-28-2007 by flyfishinPam]
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Minnow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
Phil, Why are you surmising who might threaten Lisa? Phil?
Those who lead from an ethical, moral and logical viewpoint are appreciated for their efforts. If the efforts attenuate rapid growth development
slightly they will be appreciated because that means the effort was correct and justified.
Phil, for you to suggest hypothetical threats is more than inappropriate to this process. In doing so, clearly your words connote a likely threat and
your behavior is suspect. Your note shall be put on record, along with the evidence of your login and ip address and you shall likely be considered
for having instigating a threat to a person. Your words shall not be taken likely as they demonstrate your thought process.
Your comments will be brought to the attention of the Mexican and US authorities. |
Phil was writing on personal experience. I don't see anything on the level of a threat. I am no fan of LB but comments like this certainly put me
off some of the so called eco people. Now Kid, your post it threatening. Your accusations are preposterous, and you need to censure yourself.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Minnow
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Baja_Girl
I just got back from Roatan Island - Honduras, so I need to take some time to catch up with these postings.
I find it hard to believe that the townsfolk of Loreto could be so utterly dense and short-sighted to think that Loreto Bay is good for their town.
It competes with their economy, it pollutes their environment, and worse of all - more Americans means more American fastfood and fastfood means
GARBAGE all over the place...if there is anything I HATE is garbage in the ocean. When I was in Honduras, I found Coke bottles floating in otherwise
gorgeous water. I started picking them out of the ocean - one little person won't make a difference, I know - and the Dive master said "why nearly
drown yourself for a Coke bottle" - I said "because its my ocean, too, my world, I love it and I wouldn't have empty Coke bottles floating around my
backyard...."
yes, some people will not like the truth, but the truth is, Loreto Bay is only good for the developers. Coke bottles floating around the Sea of
Cortez - makes me nauseous to think about it. Yes, Phil, staving off the damage is worth being threatened, the potential harm to Loreto is much
greater than the potential harm to myself...and I daresay, some coward threatening me would get no where. I'm not invincible, I'm just a poor
target. |
I don't believe I have ever seen a more ethno centric view of the world. Pick up the trash, that is great. I do it too. I certainly don't blame the
Coke makers. Personal choice is exactly that.
The pressure you must feel to save the Mexican people from themselves, the Americans from their corporations, and Loreto from LB must be intense.
Answer me this though.
Was the amount of consumables you used in your trip to Honduras, and polluted the Earth with, justified by picking a few Coke bottles from the Sea?
If your answer is no, you really are not helping anything are you.
According to your view of the world we would all be better off if we just stayed locked in our houses, or better yet, put a bullet in our head.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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oldhippie
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I've lost count, is this round 3 or 4 of the Loreto debate?
Pam, Lencho, anyone - have the specs for the desal filtration plant been published yet? I'd like to see them.
No point talking about the wind power idea until there is some evidence that it's going to be built. Supposedly it will be in the GN area. Has anybody
seen or heard anything? The Econergy website hasn't published anything new.
Loreto Bay has been real quiet on the Internet lately. Either there's something going on that's causing them to be quiet or they're preparing a winter
advertising blitz. Hopefully the former, probably the latter.
Pam, what's going on that's causing raw sewage in the streets?
[Edited on 8-28-2007 by oldhippie]
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capt. mike
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good amiga Wilderone sayeth............
"Mike - I thought you didn't care - fair and balanced? HA! go away"
To where? What does care have to do with it? cajhawk has made some real sense here. a level of pragmatism heretofore missing over this emotionally
based discourse.
uh oh, Fox news is coming on, gotta go see the right beat up on the left, what fun!
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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flyfishinPam
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The raw sewage is being caused by "improvements" in the infrastructure. After the first of the year (January 2007) Calles Juarez, Salvitierra and
Hidalgo (the main streets in town) were unpaved (this is what I call it, the pavement was removed). There are many rumors that people buy into and I
am hearing this one consistently;
the state government promised to repave these main thrououghfares in order to reinforce the concretes for the increased volume of traffic we expect as
a result of the growth. now that the streets were going to be unpaved the city decided to re-do the water and sewage lines before they were repaved.
sounds reasonable enough. unfortunately only less than 30% of the streets have been repaved and the rest are still waiting, yet they continue to tear
up whats left!
rumor is and it may or may not be true, that the state government has with-held funding for repaving so that Loreto will vote their party (PRD)
instead of the current party (PAN) in the next election. so that´s why we have chit floating down the street!
the street in front of my store (the very center of town) was unpaved day after easter and they keep telling us it will be done by, may 31, july,
august, before the rains, before the Loreto festivities, before hell freezes over... promises unkept. now the city has said that they will repave the
main streets in the center of town, hidalgo and juarez but that was over a month ago and still, no pavement. people are literally getting sick,
doctors are noticing (a very good man has a blood infection may be typhoid!), but read the news (Sudcaliforniano) and everyone´s soooo happy, 80+%
approval rating for the state governor, 85+% approval rating for the local government how can this be true?? speak to the real people who are living
here they are sick and tired of it.
I have lost my sense of humor over this but know we have been very lucky because when our street was unpaved my espresso business seeason was just
winding down and my fishing business was just starting to pick up. The fishermen are more understanding of the condition of the streets than the
winter and spring seasonal tourists. but I did lose business, sales and inventory to this just like everyone else here. Now that my fishing season
is basically through i have decided to close my shop early. usually I close only in September but I closed in the middle last week and will re open
on the 8th of October. Hoping that our street will be done by then but I won´t hold my breath.
in the chamber of commerce meetings, people seem to be protecting the local government and placing blame on the state. But I wonder why the local gov
would allow this work to commence in the first place if they did not have the funds in their "hands"? I don´t think any collective body of government
can be this stupid and it seems all too "fishy". Loreto has received the short end of the stick for many years but this time its REALLY short and
businesses are hurting and closing at an alarming rate when they should be thriving instead.
The streets are basically undriveable and their routes change on a daily basis without notice. There are accidents caused by this work, there is
private property damage caused by this work. the less than an inch of rainfall on sunday 19 Sept caused some nasty hazards throughout town that I
have on film because nobody would believe it otherwise. god help us if we get more rain now. its a bad combinatiion for those who live here and the
tourists think it is disgusting. many will never return and I hear this first hand. that´s bad for a town whose economy is solely based in tourism.
here´s a fact which I find alarming, the new water lines and sewage have been built to handle a population of between 30 and 40,000. That´s it? so
all this improvement will have to be re-done is such short order according to the predicted growth? i am thankful that mine is an established
business because a fledgling business would never survive this.
to add more acid to the wounds right before the Christmas holidays, when Loreto is at 100% capacity for tourism, all hotels full...the gov decides to
put lighting along the streets of Salvatierra and Hidalgo the main street in town. They proceeded to rip up most of the sidewalks so it was virtually
impossible to walk, for tourists to walk around and spend money, wey, then they closed it up after tourism went down as it does after the holidays,
only to proceed to rip up the streets entirely in february when they unpaved. I have not forgotten this. It is complete and utter bullchit and bad
for business which is bad for the local economy which is bad for everyone.
On the comment on the desal report. I have to confeess that I haven´t read it yet but your reminder here will make me print it up and read this week.
I am very interested and will start on it tonight. I just finished our busiest season ever and closed up the shop then did some spring cleaning in
my house. House is clean and now I can hang out on the hammock for some light reading. also I´ll check the stat on my new private BBS and contact
those who are interested.
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cajhawk
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Thank You
Thanks for your points Pam. I thought that I would clarify what I (think I) know about the 3 issues I stated. I think that LB needs to address the
water issue as if they weren't going to get any from the aquifer. The wind power will supply more than enough electricity intially, but if all 3
developments go in they will need to build more. As far as your take on the long term effect on Loreto, I would agree. If 3 developments of this size
go in, it will ruin Loreto. If Fadesa doesn't go in and one of the two remaining projects completes 1/2 of their scope, you are looking at about 5,000
new homes over a 10 year period (12,000 people). Will this ruin Loreto? I don't know. LB has built 150 or so homes in 4 years, so I think that 6,000
in a 10 year period will never happen.
I have spent some time in Loreto and love it. I actually bought an LB house with some partners (and am now selling it with no plans to buy anything
else -- cash strapped!). I have spent time at the Nopolo Condos as well and really like the town of Loreto itself. I have seen the good and bad of
Loreto Bay up close, so as I stated before I am not an apologist. Thanks for your viewpoint!
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flyfishinPam
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Well my child has returned from school and I have to go away from the internet now but a quick question:
"If Fadesa doesn't go in and one of the two remaining projects completes 1/2 of their scope, you are looking at about 5,000 new homes over a 10 year
period (12,000 people). Will this ruin Loreto? I don't know. LB has built 150 or so homes in 4 years, so I think that 6,000 in a 10 year period will
never happen. "
Where are you getting these numbers and how can you make your assumptions based on these? 12,000 people where in the developments or throughout the
Loreto area?
if we were only talking an increase of 12,000 new residents you wouldn´t hear a peep from me. it would be insignificant.
I don´t know about the god and bad of Loreto Bay but only the reality of Loreto.
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oldhippie
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"rumor is and it may or may not be true, that the state government has with-held funding for repaving so that Loreto will vote their party (PRD)
instead of the current party (PAN) in the next election. so that´s why we have chit floating down the street!"
I've heard that's how politics works in Mexico. Hence Hank (PRI and a strong candidiate) lost and Millan (PAN and Calderon's buddy) won in BC a few
weeks ago. A brutal but very effective political strategy. When's the next election for BCS governor and city mayors? Vote PAN all the way and get in
the good graces of Mexico City, where the big bucks are!
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
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more
The 12,000 people are at the development itself. It will obviously increase the number of people in Loreto proper as well, but nowhere near (IMHO) the
20 or so Nationals per home. The construction camps and transient nature of the industry preclude most of them from calling Loreto home long term. I
think the number will be almost one for one in that if 5,000 units are built (12,000 or so people) another 12,000 will actually be living in Loreto as
well. Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry). Is that too
many? What if Loreto proper triples in 20 years? Is that still too many? For folks there now the answer is yes, but if I come down there in 20 years
will a town of 35,000 turn me off?
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backninedan
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"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry).
Have you even been to baja?? If so you should realize how silly this statement is. Where in hell are service industry employees going to get
that kind of money. If gringos are depending on this to bail them out of a bad investment, they will be in deep trouble.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry)."
That's mighty pee-poor investing. My wife, who has lived in TJ all her life, tells me that the check-out people in grocery stores make about $80 a
week. Sooooo, let's spend a quarter of a million dollars or more on a house and rent it to these folks. I'll skip doing the arithmetic for you. That
idea is a BIG loser.
All of this is besides the point anyway. There's no water. What's there now is already being rationed.
And, thanks to the developers and their "partnerships" with the local officials,
THERE'S RAW SEWAGE FLOWING IN THE STREETS OF LORETO.
As reported by a resident of the town.
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Russ
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6742
Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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Can you just imagine how big the law suits against the government officials and developers would be in New Port Beach or any where in Orange County?
CACHING 
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oldhippie
"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry)."
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So do like they do in other areas - rent to the Time Share and Real estate sales people. And all the other hanger on's that show up in town when it's
growing.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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