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Santiago
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I left this post about page 6 as I tire of the cyber drug wars and thinking that my mind was made up on this issue. Spent 2 cups of coffee reading
the last pages and realised 2 things: 1) I'm not the smartest guy in the room and 2) Igor's points make me uncomfortable. It's hard to argue for the
'legalize' side without thinking very hard on the issues he raises. While he has not convinced me to support the current drug policy, he has made me
wonder about what my brave new world would actually morph into.
I would appreciate it, Igor, if you would refrain from posting facts and disturbing scenarios on issues where I've already made up my mind.
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Iflyfish
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Skipjack
All good questions for which I have no answer. What I do see is that the current approach is not working and other countries are having success by
dealing with the problem in other ways.
There are negative outcomes with any social policy. There will always be negative outcomes when it comes to drugs. There are people who will always
become addicted to drugs. There will always be a population of people who will not respond to drug treatment and addiction is a TERMINAL illness. For
each addict there are at least five other people who are profoundly affected. Families suffer, children suffer, communities suffer.
A study published today in the Oregonian posits that 58.8% of those in our state prison system have a Severe problem with drugs, an additional 15.46%
have a Moderate problem with drugs, while 25.68 show no reported problem with drugs. Imprisonment with out any treatment, rehabilitation or access to
legitimate employment after incarceration is a road map to disaster. Really dealing with this problem is VERY expensive and requires a great deal of
dedication on the part of those dealing with these individuals. The problem of addiction already exists, the issue is how best to address this major
social problem. We now have the highest incarceration rates of any country on this earth. Is this approach working?
I can cite the following regarding current costs, the figures are from 2005 so do not reflect inflation:
June 19, 2006
Cost of Incarceration and Superivsed Release
Cost calculations were made by the Bureau of Prisons and by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts.
Costs of Incarceration and Supervised Release
June 6, 2006 — In fiscal year 2005, it cost $23,431.92 to keep someone incarcerated in a Federal Bureau of Prisons facility and $20,843.78 to keep a
federal inmate incarcerated in a community correction center.
For the same 12-month period ending September 30, 2005, it cost $3,450 for a federal offender to be supervised by probation officers.
Those figures translate into daily costs of $64.19 for a Bureau of Prisons facility, $57.10 for a community correction center, and $9.45 for
supervised release.
http://www.uscourts.gov/newsroom/prisoncost.html
Contrast this with the following:
"2008-09 College Prices
Although some of the college price tags you hear about can be quite daunting—$35,000 or more for yearly tuition and fees—most colleges are more
affordable than you might think. For example, did you know that about 56 percent of students attend four-year schools with annual tuition and fees
below $9,000? After grants are taken into consideration, the net price the average undergraduate pays for a college education is significantly lower
than the published tuition and fees. And remember, other forms of financial aid will further reduce the amount your family will actually pay."
I question the current allocation of funding for this problem. Escalating a "War on Drugs" is very, very expensive and these funds could go to better
use in my view.
Drug rehab success rates vary from 2% to 75% success rate.
http://www.drug-rehabs.org/
For some rather stunning information on the cost of the "War on Drugs" go to the following site: The annual cost is in the three digit BILLIONS.
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
There are no simple solutions to complex problems. On this I am clear. Any approach we try will cost money, lots of money. Legalization could offer an
opportunity for the state to generate revenue from production and sales which could be used for treatment as it is in the case of tobacco.
Iflyfish
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Dave
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We're all just blowing academic smoke
Mexico is waist deep in the big muddy. Lookie here:
By Sandra Dibble
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
9:19 p.m. November 30, 2008
TIJUANA – The decapitated bodies of three police officers were found alongside six other beheaded corpses Sunday during a weekend of violence in which
34 people were killed in different sections of Tijuana.
The victims also included a 4-year-old boy and a 13-year-old boy, killed by gunmen Saturday night together with two adults by a grocery store in
eastern Tijuana. Several hours later, the 18-year-old nephew of Baja California's tourism secretary was found shot to death inside a vehicle in an
upscale neighborhood a few miles east of downtown.
The deaths bring to more than 360 killed since late September, the result of a brutal turf battle between rival drug gangs. The total
slain for all of last year was 337.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
I would appreciate it, Igor, if you would refrain from posting facts and disturbing scenarios on issues where I've already made up my mind.
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OK. Let's try humor then:
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
My interests have been divided about equally among Psychology, Neurology, Sociology, Anthropology and viniculture.
Iflyfish |
Viniculture?
The only Vini I know of is Testaverde.
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BajaGringo
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Skipjack:
Very good questions you ask but to be fair I think we need to frame those questions in the terms of if there would be SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES in those
numbers whether drugs were legalized or not. As one who has suffered through the drug addictions of a few very close to me, I know that it made no
difference to them whether the drugs were legal or not. My opinion is that legalization will not change those numbers significantly but we may save
many who are dying in the current war on drugs as well save billions that could go to education and better purposes...
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Iflyfish
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Skipjack
Viniculture as in wine, not whine.
Iflyfishwhennotsamplingoregonpinotnoir
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Screw all of the philosophizing. The truth of the matter is that the Mexican Authorities need to kill each and every one of these sub-human bastards
and/or jail them for the rest of their lives without the possibility of parole because once you commit murder it becomes easier the second time around
then easier the third time around etc. Mexico is now full of these indiscriminant killers who have individually killed many times and do not have a
conscious. They obviously do not care who they end up killing and one or more of us may be next in their indiscriminant killing spree.
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BajaGringo
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Many here in Mexico agree with you David and everyday I talk to folks here who want for the death penalty to be made law and used on these low life
scum.
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Iflyfish
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ELINVESTI8
The inplimentation of the death penalty in the USofA after the Linberg kidnapping brought the practice to a near screaching halt.
Ditto to BajaGringo's comments regarding the death penalty. Modernizing the Judicial system would also help however that sort of change will need to
be incrimental and it seems Mexico has already started this process.
Dave is absolutely right, the situation is way out of hand and a crisis NOW. These brutal killings are horrible, just horrible.
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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ELINVESTI8
See the recent thread regarding police corruption. More of the same guys offing each other.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
As one who has suffered through the drug addictions of a few very close to me, I know that it made no difference to them whether the drugs were legal
or not.
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It made no difference AFTER he/she became addicted. But would they have become addicted in the first place if drugs were less readily available. If
say, all he/she had to do was get them at Long's.
I too have a friend like that. He was student body president and class valedictorian graduating from Marshall High school. It seemed that the world
lay at his feet. Intelligent, handsome, personable, he had everything going for him. All was possible. But it didn't turn out that way. Somewhere in
college he was introduced to drugs and it has been devastating. Rehabiliation after rehab hasn't worked. Old friends have tried to guide and shield
him. A failed marriage. A latch key son being largely ignored. Can't hold jobs friends set him up with in hopes that responsibility and pride will
sway his resolve. All of this and nothing seems to stop it. But why talk about him. The magazines are full of such people.
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BajaGringo
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I know Skip, it hurts. I have someone I care for deeply that is addicted to heroin. I share your wish that all of these drugs were gone and
unavailable to prevent stories like you and I both share. the reality is that after spending countless billions of dollars and thousands dead in the
fight to purge these drugs, they are as much/more available than ever. Obviously this "war on drugs" is not working. I wish it was, but it isn't and
all the wishing in the world won't change that.
That is why I support the idea to just legalize them. I don't believe that we will see a larger number start using drugs, just more will be open about
their use of them is all. The money that is wasted on this war on drugs now can go to education.
I say at least give it a try and see what happens. The current plan is definitely a failure...
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Skipjack Joe
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Well, I guess that's where we differ. I don't want to try. I want to know.
I want to know what's going to happen before I make it happen. Most of the people here arguing to legalization are doing it as a knee jerk reaction to
the violence. I asked Iflyfish these questions in order to show nomads that they want to substitute a known evil with something they don't know. It
makes little sense to me.
Also, I would like to point out that most nomads are over 60. Drug addiction plays no role in their lives or their immediate children, assuming their
sons and daughters are around 40, as people don't experiment at that age. However, everyone in baja is starting to feel the heat of drug violence.
Drug legalization means as much to nomads as social security interests someone in their 20's. Most Americans are younger than nomads. Most Americans,
I believe, don't think like nomads.
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Dave
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It never worked 'cause it was never a war
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Obviously this "war on drugs" is not working. I wish it was, but it isn't and all the wishing in the world won't change that.
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How do you win a war when simple possession is a $100 fine. What kind of message does this send?
My belief is that the casual user is the fuel behind the cartel. Punish them, really] punish them and the fire dies out.
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BajaGringo
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So what kind of punishment do you propose?
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Dave
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Don't know
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
So what kind of punishment do you propose? |
Whatever it would take to get the attention of the casual user. So...
What would scare the crap out of you?
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BajaGringo
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Long term jail sentences would scare me which goes back to a comment I made earlier about filling the prisons with a large % of our population.
Problem is that I am not a good one to ask. I don't do drugs and never been in the casual user category.
Are you prepared to put away and pay for a large number of people to go to jail for a long time in the chance to see if your solution works?
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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Long term jail sentences would scare me which goes back to a comment I made earlier about filling the prisons with a large % of our population.
Problem is that I am not a good one to ask. I don't do drugs and never been in the casual user category.
Are you prepared to put away and pay for a large number of people to go to jail for a long time in the chance to see if your solution works?
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Why not a large fine and community service in lieu of a lengthy prison term? There are plenty of parks around San Diego that need some attention.
Zac
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BajaGringo
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Large fines don't seem to scare people. Proof of that is drunk driving as the fines have increased over ten fold along with increased insurance rates,
etc and still it is a problem.
It will take very stiff jail sentences and I don't see us incarcerating so many people as a realistic solution...
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Iflyfish
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Lets see, how many jail beds would it require? How much community service would it take? Let's see....12 million beds???? 12 million in community
service??
Some interesting statistics in light of this idea:
Marijuana is the most frequently used illegal drug in the United States. Over 83 million Americans over the age of 12 have tried marijuana at least
once. Over 12 million had used the drug in the month before the survey.
The Monitoring the Future Survey, which is conducted yearly, includes students from 8th, 10th, and 12th grades. In 2001, the survey showed that 20
percent of 8th-graders have tried marijuana at least once, and by 10th grade, 20 percent are “current” users (that is, used within the past month).
Among 12th-graders, nearly 50 percent have tried marijuana/hash at least once, and about 22 percent were current users.
Other researchers have found that use of marijuana and other drugs usually peaks in the late teens and early twenties, then declines in later years.
Research shows that nearly 50 percent of teenagers try marijuana before they graduate from high school.
Yup, lock 'em up. Spend the $25,000 per year it costs to monitor or imprison them, lets see 12 million times $25,000, you do the math. Do you really
want to add this cost to the BILLIONs being spent now on this "war"?
When you have 12 million people who use the drug each month even as it is illegal, do you think criminal penalties will stop them? I doubt that.
If you look at the side of the road now in the USofA the guys in the orange suits are already subject to these sanctions, it it stopping them?
Iflyfish
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