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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
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To foot the bill for cleaning the air on a small segment of the world's population (US AND EU) when the majority of the world's population has no
intent to curb any form of fossil energy use is just folly as it won't make a tinker's damn bit of difference in the overall world's atmosphere.
Secondly and maybe most important you condemn those populations in the 3rd world to a life of poverty and ill health by not promoting THEIR use of
cheap energy (coal and oil). Energy builds civilizations and lengthens life expectancy where it is used.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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surabi
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Posts: 4936
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Not one of those people said "the world will end in ten years". If you are going to claim that someone said something, name the source for the exact
quote. Your interpretation of what people say isn't of any value. And claiming someone said something they didn't in order to disparage them is called
libel.
And I suggest you do a little research on coal mining regarding your notion that it "saves people from early death." The families of coal miners who
die from black lung disease, COPD, and other lung diseases would beg to differ.
https://publichealth.uic.edu/news-stories/modern-coal-miners...)%2C%20and%20lung%20function%20impairment.
"Coal mining continues to be one of the most hazardous professions in our society. Even today, while the number of large-scale mining disasters and
the number of deaths have certainly declined, coal miners continue to face a work environment that is inherently toxic and unhealthy. Coal miners who
survive the mines walk away from their profession with significant health impairments and shorter life expectancies than most other Americans."
And no, none of your examples above are even close to the definition of "hysterical". The definition of hysterical means an inability to control one's
feelings or behavior. Just because someone protests something that you don't believe in or protests in a way that you disagree with doesn't make them
hysterical.
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Tioloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2678
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Quote: Originally posted by surabi  | Not one of those people said "the world will end in ten years". If you are going to claim that someone said something, name the source for the exact
quote. Your interpretation of what people say isn't of any value. And claiming someone said something they didn't in order to disparage them is called
libel.
And I suggest you do a little research on coal mining regarding your notion that it "saves people from early death." The families of coal miners who
die from black lung disease, COPD, and other lung diseases would beg to differ.
https://publichealth.uic.edu/news-stories/modern-coal-miners...)%2C%20and%20lung%20function%20impairment.
"Coal mining continues to be one of the most hazardous professions in our society. Even today, while the number of large-scale mining disasters and
the number of deaths have certainly declined, coal miners continue to face a work environment that is inherently toxic and unhealthy. Coal miners who
survive the mines walk away from their profession with significant health impairments and shorter life expectancies than most other Americans."
And no, none of your examples above are even close to the definition of "hysterical". The definition of hysterical means an inability to control one's
feelings or behavior. Just because someone protests something that you don't believe in or protests in a way that you disagree with doesn't make them
hysterical. |
but you can't control your feelings.... funny
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caj13
Super Nomad
Posts: 1002
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I just stopped by here for my weekly fix of Ignorant proclamations by willfully uneducated individuals trying to justify their personal agendas - and
right on que - heres Cliffy
"Obviously you didn't comprehend what I was saying about coal-
The focus was on cheap electricity and only fossil fuels can deliver that"
really cliffy - there's this brand new thing called google - and a skilled operator can actually use it to find information - stuff like:
For the last 13 to 15 years, renewable power generation costs from solar and wind power have been falling. Between 2010 and 2022, solar and wind power
became cost-competitive with fossil fuels even without financial support. The global weighted average cost of electricity from solar PV fell by 89 per
cent to USD 0.049/kWh, almost one-third less than the cheapest fossil fuel globally. For onshore wind the fall was 69 per cent to USD 0.033/kWh in
2022, slightly less than half that of the cheapest fossil fuel-fired option in 2022.
see - easy to find - but hard to swallow eh Cliffy - don't you just hate it when actual facts get in the way of your fantasy narrative!
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Tioloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2678
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| Quote: Originally posted by caj13 | I just stopped by here for my weekly fix of Ignorant proclamations by willfully uneducated individuals trying to justify their personal agendas - and
right on que - heres Cliffy
"Obviously you didn't comprehend what I was saying about coal-
The focus was on cheap electricity and only fossil fuels can deliver that"
really cliffy - there's this brand new thing called google - and a skilled operator can actually use it to find information - stuff like:
For the last 13 to 15 years, renewable power generation costs from solar and wind power have been falling. Between 2010 and 2022, solar and wind power
became cost-competitive with fossil fuels even without financial support. The global weighted average cost of electricity from solar PV fell by 89 per
cent to USD 0.049/kWh, almost one-third less than the cheapest fossil fuel globally. For onshore wind the fall was 69 per cent to USD 0.033/kWh in
2022, slightly less than half that of the cheapest fossil fuel-fired option in 2022.
see - easy to find - but hard to swallow eh Cliffy - don't you just hate it when actual facts get in the way of your fantasy narrative!
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Your stats dont acknowledge the taxpayer subsidies that hide the real cost. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING COST COMPETITIVE
At least be honest about it
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18384
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Location: San Diego
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Base load is a misnomer,and a bit of an outdated concept. You can see the daily energy sources online, for example at cal iso
https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/Pages/supply.aspx
Generation sources change with time of day-and weather.
Renewables provide a great source of energy.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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RFClark
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Posts: 2462
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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Goat,
“Base Load” is what keeps things going at night, every night, or when the wind don’t blow or the sun shine!
You have lots of wind, solar and water. What you don’t have is enough Storage for any of them. Why you don’t is politics not engineering! Doug
says no politics here!
I will point out is that the shutdown date of the much hated last nuclear generator in California has wisely been extended. That as an indication of
how bad things really are glowing platitudes aside!
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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What is cheaper to install and add to or build a distribution system-
coal or wind?
What if an impoverished country has lots of coal to burn ?
Should they just forego it and wait until they can "afford" to do solar or wind?
What about the basic low tech jobs that a coal industry could bring to an impoverished country in Africa?
Are you going to teach thousands of citizens of a country to build and install the wind turbines or solar panels or are you going outside the country
for a source and workers to build the system? And then try to sell them overpriced electricity brought in by renewables because their country can't
subsidize the industry?
How are you going to maintain a high tech system in an impoverished country that has trouble even keeping a small coal plant operating? A populace
that doesn't even have a 4th grade education level? What do you do for them with your pontification of THEIR responsibilities to save the world? How
about we bring them up to the level we enjoyed 100 years ago? Which they don't have today!
Coal can bring jobs to an impoverished country and try as we might - even though it might not be the most ideal way to generate electricity it at
least raises the poverty level in that country. Or do you just want to forego the fact that life is shorter in countries that don't have cheap
reliable power?
How about when the country doesn't have any base load carry capacity? Where do they start? Only have power when the wind blows or the sun shines?
Is every country around the world suitable to use high tech renewables?
Do they have the land available? Is the land suitable for either wind or solar?
How are they to carry over when the wind don't blow or the sun don't shine?
BTW Just how much does cloud cover reduce solar generation capacity? Not everywhere in the world do we see 350 days a year of bright sunshine?
Here's some counter views on the "hockey stick" climate modeling if any of the climate N-zis would even dare to view it- I doubt any will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWWMneHuCE
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7084
Registered: 8-5-2011
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Thanks, goat. That's a great website. I'm glad to see the amount of renewable energy being generated, and I'm all for more of it.
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Tioloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2678
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | What is cheaper to install and add to or build a distribution system-
coal or wind?
What if an impoverished country has lots of coal to burn ?
Should they just forego it and wait until they can "afford" to do solar or wind?
What about the basic low tech jobs that a coal industry could bring to an impoverished country in Africa?
Are you going to teach thousands of citizens of a country to build and install the wind turbines or solar panels or are you going outside the country
for a source and workers to build the system? And then try to sell them overpriced electricity brought in by renewables because their country can't
subsidize the industry?
How are you going to maintain a high tech system in an impoverished country that has trouble even keeping a small coal plant operating? A populace
that doesn't even have a 4th grade education level? What do you do for them with your pontification of THEIR responsibilities to save the world? How
about we bring them up to the level we enjoyed 100 years ago? Which they don't have today!
Coal can bring jobs to an impoverished country and try as we might - even though it might not be the most ideal way to generate electricity it at
least raises the poverty level in that country. Or do you just want to forego the fact that life is shorter in countries that don't have cheap
reliable power?
How about when the country doesn't have any base load carry capacity? Where do they start? Only have power when the wind blows or the sun shines?
Is every country around the world suitable to use high tech renewables?
Do they have the land available? Is the land suitable for either wind or solar?
How are they to carry over when the wind don't blow or the sun don't shine?
BTW Just how much does cloud cover reduce solar generation capacity? Not everywhere in the world do we see 350 days a year of bright sunshine?
Here's some counter views on the "hockey stick" climate modeling if any of the climate N-zis would even dare to view it- I doubt any will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWWMneHuCE |
Interesting link
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18384
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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You guys dont even know the words. Load is demand, not generation. Perhaps you guys mean base load generation when you fantasize about fossil fuel
power plants rotating at 2 in the morning, eh? 
[Edited on 5-4-2024 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2462
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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Yes goat,
Base load is what your generating, transmission and Storage have to carry.
So if it’s all Rosy Scenarios why suddenly extend the life of the hated nuclear plant?
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JZ
Select Nomad
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Welp, no more coffee for you! Sure glad I'm not a coffee drinker.
Click the link to watch the video of the guy saying this.
https://x.com/wideawake_media/status/1786328788155998433
[Edited on 5-6-2024 by JZ]
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caj13
Super Nomad
Posts: 1002
Registered: 8-1-2017
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco | ! [/rquote]
Your stats dont acknowledge the taxpayer subsidies that hide the real cost. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING COST COMPETITIVE
At least be honest about it |
You actually have a citation for that Tio - or do you just make up stuff like Cliffy and spout right wing rhetoric without any facts. I provided
facts - your comments about those - just plain wrong - and all you would have to do is actually read it to know you were wrong!
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caj13
Super Nomad
Posts: 1002
Registered: 8-1-2017
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and for you yahoos like cliffy still spouting the tired old and ridiculously wrong - "cheaper to build fossil fuel powerplants and distribution -
where did that nonsense come from? Don't you think if it were cheaper the power companies would be all over that - but here in the USA - All of the
increases in power production are renewables - all of em - because they are much cheaper per KW hr.
For god sakes - one of you - any one of you - save yourselves from the embarrassment of being Willfully ignorant - just take the 2 minutes to
google some of the supposed facts you are vomiting out - you'll find out almost immediately that you are completely wrong!
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PaulW
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3075
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Unfortunately what we have is existing power and it costs more to go with with new technology than to live with the old stuff.
The more renewable percentage my power company uses the higher my rates go.
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2462
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Delighted with 2024 and looking forward to 2025
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“But it was the best butter!” MIT report on increased global warming due to cleaner air
“Usually when we talk about climate change, the focus is squarely on the role that greenhouse-gas emissions play in driving up global temperatures,
and rightly so. But another important, less-known phenomenon is also heating up the planet: reductions in other types of pollution.
In particular, the world’s power plants, factories, and ships are pumping much less sulfur dioxide into the air, thanks to an increasingly strict
set of global pollution regulations. Sulfur dioxide creates aerosol particles in the atmosphere that can directly reflect sunlight back into space or
act as the “condensation nuclei” around which cloud droplets form. More or thicker clouds, in turn, also cast away more sunlight. So when we clean
up pollution, we also ease this cooling effect.”
https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/04/11/1091087/the-inad...
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surabi
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4936
Registered: 5-6-2016
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| Quote: Originally posted by caj13 | and for you yahoos like cliffy still spouting the tired old and ridiculously wrong - "cheaper to build fossil fuel powerplants and distribution -
where did that nonsense come from? Don't you think if it were cheaper the power companies would be all over that - but here in the USA - All of the
increases in power production are renewables - all of em - because they are much cheaper per KW hr.
For god sakes - one of you - any one of you - save yourselves from the embarrassment of being Willfully ignorant - just take the 2 minutes to
google some of the supposed facts you are vomiting out - you'll find out almost immediately that you are completely wrong! |
These fossil fuel promoters don't understand or acknowledge the concept of "cheaper" not being an in-the-moment factor, anyway, when it comes to their
denial.
If you buy a "cheap" tool that breaks within 6 months, is it "cheaper" than buying a tool that costs twice as much initially, but lasts 10 times as
long?
It's "cheaper" to buy and eat white Bimbo bread and other nutritionless food, but what are the health costs of eating crap food in the long run?
Also, Cliffy seems to think that just because someone lives in an impoverished country and working in a coal mine means they have a job, it's okay for
them to suffer the health hazards and shortened life span resulting from that occupation.
Everyone wants clean air to breathe, even the "impoverished".
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2462
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In addition to Cliffy, I think people who work often at dangerous demanding jobs generally live longer than those who don’t work because there is no
work and starve to death.
The same is true for people who might die sooner because of air pollution but nowhere as soon as they will die from the increased heat or drown
because of the sea level rise caused by clear air temperature increases. (38+% of the total increase!)
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
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What is being ignored is that African countries have to build a Base Load system BEFORE they can even think of renewables.
Can't run a country on just renewables!
If you don't have some sort of dino juice power for the base load you don't have a grid. The sun goes down and the wind dies at night
The price of mining coal in the developed countries is far higher than it would be on the African continent due to lower POLITICAL restrictions.
And it would put people who have no job in the labor market EVEN if it is in job with hazards the we in the West can pontificate about.
People who have nothing make choices too. Like trying to feed their family and themselves. We in the West made the same choices as we were building a
nation.
Now that WE have ubiquitous POWER we can tell the world how THEY must operate in their country?
Its reminiscent of Marie Antoinette - "Let them eat cake!"
They sell mangos on the street for 10 for a penny just to survive and you want them to invest in high tech expensive renewables that they have NO way
of keeping in operating status with governments that are corrupt and broke financially? Sounds like a GREAT plan.
I think I read that the Artic sea ice has set a record this year for a high amount? I guess when that melts we'll finally see the tree under water?
As I mentioned before- "facts" on the environment seem to be only from algorithms and algorithms are "massaged" to get the outcome wanted as was
evident in the last video posted that I'm sure my detractors did not even open. Closed minds are a lost sole.
Lets see we are now up to about 400 retracted papers on COVID
And that was "The Science" 3 years ago!
Skeptic's then were pilloried bit of course there are those who think we should shut down and wear masks still today.
I wonder how many retractions we'll see on the environment?
There are only 2 hockey sticks that are real-
One is used in the NHL
And the other was on tail of every Eastern Airlines airplane.
Again all the climate N&zis do is pontificate without offering real solutions to real problems from the stance they take.
Address the problems noted rather than bloviate We're listening.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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