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Bajaboy
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Large fines don't seem to scare people. Proof of that is drunk driving as the fines have increased over ten fold along with increased insurance rates,
etc and still it is a problem.
It will take very stiff jail sentences and I don't see us incarcerating so many people as a realistic solution... |
Well according to the statistics, alcohol related crashes are down:
http://www.madd.org/getfile/87c27a21-7866-47d6-8ad3-5025867b...
Not sure why this is such a bad approach. Or we could just throw in the towel and legalize drugs. What a simple answer.
zac
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Dave
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How about this...
First time offenders fined the cost of prosecution and given a 5 year suspended sentence subject to a strict non-association policy with drug users.
Break the terms and go directly to jail. No exception. Make it for term and the records are expunged.
Take ALL the billions spent outside our borders to prop up narco states and drug interdiction and put it to work here against the end user.
Demand drives this market. Kill it.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajaboy
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGringo
Large fines don't seem to scare people. Proof of that is drunk driving as the fines have increased over ten fold along with increased insurance rates,
etc and still it is a problem.
It will take very stiff jail sentences and I don't see us incarcerating so many people as a realistic solution... |
Well according to the statistics, alcohol related crashes are down:
http://www.madd.org/getfile/87c27a21-7866-47d6-8ad3-5025867b...
Not sure why this is such a bad approach. Or we could just throw in the towel and legalize drugs. What a simple answer.
zac |
"Alcohol related" stats cloud the issue as it has nothing to do with the condion of the driver at the time of the accident. If an empty beer can is
found in the back seat , the accident is "alcohol related"
DUI numbers are twisted as well. Most DUI accidents take place when the driver is two or three times the legal DUI limit- not just one beer over.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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BajaGringo
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Read this interesting perspective from the retired chief of police of Seattle:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002661006_sun...
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Skipjack Joe
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This is going to show my ignorance but here goes anyway:
Ric, what about patches? Like the nicotine patch, this would be a cheap imitation of the replacable drug that would temporarily remove the craving but
not have the damaging effects of say heroin. Has anything like that been attempted? Can't the drug companies come up with something like that that
would compete with the drug dealers for people who have tried drugs but want out and can't do it.
flame away!
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BajaGringo
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Skip - I think it's a very good question...
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woody with a view
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
This is going to show my ignorance but here goes anyway:
Ric, what about patches? Like the nicotine patch, this would be a cheap imitation of the replacable drug that would temporarily remove the craving but
not have the damaging effects of say heroin. Has anything like that been attempted? Can't the drug companies come up with something like that that
would compete with the drug dealers for people who have tried drugs but want out and can't do it.
flame away! |
the thing is, is, they gotta wanna quit!!! most junkies don't want to quit until they are tired of the game....it usually takes awhile.
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Iflyfish
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SkipJack
There are alternatives for Heroin and other opiates. Methadone has been used since the 1970s as have legalization including providing addicts with
drugs. There are many models for treatment including needle exchanges and safe places to inject. Titration is the treatment of choice for withdrawal
from alcohol, barbiturates, stimulants and opiates. There are also other drugs that can assist the addict in “coming down” but none is without its own
particular pain or issue. There is no free lunch. Substituting one addictive drug for another is a questionable approach from the perspective of many
involved in drug treatment. It seems like providing the drug itself makes more sense to me. Now don’t get me wrong. I am not advocating drug use. We
are talking about alternative views of treatment. There is a point of view that advocates abstinence pure and simple and others who advocate
occasional use by some and some advocate substitutes i.e. methadone. The abstinence folks hold center court at this time.
One of the problems with recovery is that it appears that the addict to relationships, sex, or processes need to “hit bottom” and that is never a
pretty sight and the bottom is different for different people. People engaged in recovery often “relapse” and it is to be an expected part of
treatment and each incident must be processed by the addict and alternatives developed.
Again I think it is important to recognize that we are not talking about a single drug but a range of drugs, stimulants, including the range of
amphetamines, Ritalin, Adderall, etc. barbiturates, cocaine, opiates, hallucinogenic drugs i.e. LSD, Mescaline, Peyote, Psilocybin and marijuana.
It would appear that, second to alcohol, marijuana would be the drug of choice for most people and therefore its legalization would have the most
affect on the problem. Cocaine and amphetamines probably follow close behind with opiates in third place. I think each drug would need to be dealt
with in a different way. For instance Switzerland is providing government grown and produced heroin to its addicts twice per day so that the people
can work and not have to spend their time “hustling” their fix and the money it takes to purchase it on the open market. This takes the underground
out of the equation and does not require the addict to acquire large amounts of money each day to pay their dealer. Getting addicts out of the closet
is a necessary first step and there are models of successful treatment that could and should be replicated.
It is important to understand that junkies don’t use to get high, after the first round they use to feel normal. There are functional addicts just
like there are functional alcoholics. People can use and still be productive. Because these drugs are part of an underground economy and not legally
available the addict must spend a great deal of time and money obtaining their drugs. You have spent time with functional alcoholics and addicts and
probably never knew it. I see functional alcoholics every day when in Mexico and they are “invisible” to most of us. They just “drink beer” and have a
beer in their hand at all times of the day. They may work on your car, fish with you in their panga, etc. etc. Mexico is just not as puritanical about
these things as is the USofA.
Woody has a good point, a very interesting book on the subject was written by William S. Burroughs, The Naked Lunch, in which he describes a dance of
people addicted to drugs, addicted to the thrill of the attainment of drugs, cops addicted to “busting” junkies etc. For some being on the SWAT squad
is a major source of adrenaline, a very powerful drug along with testosterone which those folks seem to have by the bucket. Have you ever seen the
pleasure of the pack as those guys kick down the door of a “bad” guy? Oops, worn door, oh well, great op anyway. Burroughs was a heroin addict and one
of the first to go through treatment with methadone. There are lots of very famous people, like Freud, who used drugs, in Freud’s case, cocaine. These
people used drugs and yet were productive people. We seem to forget this in our zeal to eradicate this most hedonistic of behaviors, drugs that others
use that I do not. Have you ever seen anyone more self righteous than an X smoker in the presence of another smoker. Hyperbole folks, just hyperbole,
but you get the point.
Iflyfish
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CaboRon
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Meth Additiction In Mexico
Mexicans catch meth habit in shadow of drugs war
December 1, 2008
Meth, which can be taken in pills, snorted or injected, is cheaper
than cocaine or heroin and has a long-lasting high. But the drug is
highly addictive and is very difficult to treat.
By Mica Rosenberg
MEXICO CITY, Dec 1 (Reuters) - Drug violence, including decapitations
and grenade attacks, has killed some 4,500 people in Mexico this year
but thousands of others are falling victim to a quieter crisis:
addiction to methamphetamine.
Mexico is now the largest producer of methamphetamine for the U.S.
market and traffickers have recently found a growing number of users
at home, many of them minors.
Meth, which can be taken in pills, snorted or injected, is cheaper
than cocaine or heroin and has a long-lasting high. But the drug is
highly addictive and is very difficult to treat.
Meth use in Mexico has quadrupled in six years, according to a survey
by the health ministry. The study, to be released in the coming
weeks, shows 0.5 percent of the Mexican population has tried meth,
more than double the 0.2 percent of the U.S. population who have used
it.
One 23-year-old who gave her name as Violeta started using hard drugs
like crack-cocaine as a teenager working in a Mexico City strip club.
She tried meth for the first time when dozens of pills were passed
around on a tray at a party.
She once stopped breathing after a bad hit of the drug, which
accelerates the heart rate.
"The last thing I remember is having a great time dancing. Then I
woke up in the hospital. Apparently I was convulsing in the
bathroom," she said.
As U.S. authorities cracked down in recent years on the sale of the
drug's ingredients, busting "mom and pop" labs in blue collar garages
and bathrooms, Mexican gangs that already smuggled huge quantities of
cocaine and marijuana into the United States moved in to meet the
demand for meth.
They are now churning out tonnes of meth in "super labs".
The trade is a part of a bitter fight in Mexico which has pitted
rival drug gangs against each other and the security forces. The
conflict has worsened this year with a record number of murders.
Last year, Mexican police found $206 million. a world record drug
cash haul, in the mansion of Chinese-born "meth king" Zhenli Ye Gon.
He made his fortune importing meth's ingredients from Asia.
BANANA FLAVORED DRUGS
In Mexico City's historical center, meth labs are hidden in the
basements of normal-looking houses. Dealers take the drug, sometimes
banana flavored, to schools to sell.
Addicts shooting up in the dry ravines in the shadow of the U.S.-
Mexico border in Tijuana were the first wave of meth users. Many were
deported immigrants who got their first taste of the drug in the
United States.
"It's really easy to find. First they give it to you for free but
later you have to buy it," said one slight 10-year-old who called
himself Gilberto at a drug treatment center in Tijuana, just across
the border from San Diego.
The drug began spreading south, showing up at raves and clubs in
pills in a wide array of flavors and colors, and with names like 'the
elevator' and the 'ying-yang.'
The health ministry survey -- the only national data available on
drug use in general -- found the number of women taking drugs in
general in Mexico doubled between 2002 and 2008 and the number of
addicts over all jumped by more than 50 percent.
Strict U.S. border control, the increased availability of narcotics,
Mexican army and police action against cartels trying to smuggle
drugs to the United States, and looser social norms are all blamed
for the increased consumption in Mexico.
"When you crack down on the drug trade, cartels start paying
(middlemen) in drugs, which they then have to turn around and sell,"
Health Minister Jose Angel Cordova said.
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k-rico
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All because of stuffed up noses
As I've stated before I believe a good approach to the meth problem is to crack down on the legal manufacturers of the precursor chemical
(pseudoephedrine) that are making huge profits from the methamphetamine addiction that is destroying so many lives.
"The U.N. World Drug Report calls meth the most abused hard drug on earth, and the world's 26 million meth addicts equals the combined number for
cocaine and heroin users. America alone has 1.4 million users, and the number is rising; globally, the highest concentration of addicts is in East and
Southeast Asia."
"Mexico legally imports 224 tons of pseudoephedrine -- twice as much as they need to make cold medicine. The extra 100 tons is cooked into meth, then
smuggled, like other drugs, across the border into the United States. As a result, meth on American streets is as pure as it's ever been."
http://www.osagetribe.com/preventionprograms/news_story.aspx...
also,
link
[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]
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Iflyfish
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BajaGringo
I have wasted a lot of words, this guy says it all and says it well. God grant me the gift of brevity and the wisdom to use it.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002661006_sun...
Iflyfishwhennotcomposingbloatedparagraphswithdependantclauses
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k-rico
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yes but he also says:
"But wouldn't regulated legalization lead to more users and, more to the point, drug abusers? Probably, though no one knows for sure — our leaders are
too timid even to broach the subject in polite circles, much less to experiment with new policy models. My own prediction? We'd see modest increases
in use, negligible increases in abuse."
Opinions, predictions......based upon what? Don't forget we're talking about highly addictive drugs too, where use turns into abuse very quickly.
That's a fact.
Everything is relative, and relative to hard drugs, the softer ones like marijuana are a very small problem.
Besides, let's say you could go to a drug store and buy your drug of choice for $10. All the black market would have to do is sell the same dose for
$7 and they're back in business. Where is logical end? The government supplies them for free?
[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]
[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]
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Iflyfish
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k-rico
You have posted a very interesting citation and one that I learned something from. Since I am in my sixties I know about speed. I saw it used a lot in
the Bay Area in my youth and helped treat addicts during that time. Crystal Meth had not yet been synthesized so I have had little exposure to it. It
sounds like it is a super amphetamine, very powerful and highly addictive. The withdrawals I witnessed in Psychiatric hospitals from speed, the old
meth, were horrible and predictable, paranoia and the sensation of spiders crawling on and in the flesh. I was surprised to see the commonality of the
hallucinations, always spiders. Epinephrine, a neurotransmitter in the brain is lowered and so the addict who is withdrawing is overwhelmed with
sensory input that they cannot process hence paranoia. The “spiders” may be related to the sensations produced by hair follicles, that’s just my
speculation
http://www.osagetribe.com/preventionprograms/news_story.aspx...
Your post and the idea of cutting access to necessary ingredients for crystal meth production certainly has merit and indeed appears to have impacted
the trade when implemented though it certainly is a cat and mouse game coming up with the next source of raw material. Human beings are amazingly
creative and inventive when it comes to their drugs. Have you ever thought how “primitive” people would have sorted out that their coca leaves were
more powerful if they mixed them with the ashes of shells burned in a fire? Go figure. That’s a multi step process worked out way before the internet.
This post also underscores the fact that different drugs require different strategies as has been said before in this thread.
Iflyfishwhennotmarvelingathumannatureanditsapparentneedtoalterconsciousness
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Iflyfish
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k-rico
"Where is logical end? The government supplies them for free?"
In some cases, i.e. heroin, the Swiss model of providing the drug twice per day may have merit. Other drugs may require other strategies like those
you have been talking about i.e. limiting the supply of components.
Iflyfish
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Skipjack Joe
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K-Rico is right on in his critique of that article. It makes a lot of claims about the benefits to enforcement and reduction of violence but when it
came to predicting drug use after legalization - a small paragraph that basically says "I'm not sure". What else can you expect from a police chief.
He hasn't really said anything we don't already know. An opinion from a senior health official on the matter may be more enlightening.
Thank you for the article on Meth and it's impact on the Mexican people. Increasing usage and crime rate. Widespread availability. The stats are
alarming. It really sounds like things will get worse, not better.
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BajaGringo
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You are right Skip/K-Rico that we cannot be sure if there will be some increase in drug use if legalized. We can be sure that there will be a
reduction in the deaths from the current narco drug wars as well as reduced costs for current drug laws enforcement/court
costs/encarceration/probation. There will be additional revenue from the taxation of these drugs and all that money saved/earned can go to education
about drug use, much like we do with cigarettes today.
I think it is a chance worth taking as we know for sure the current policy is not working. I also accept that we disagree on this point but that is
something that we will probably not change, no matter how much we talk about it...
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toneart
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This has been a very thorough discussion. We have learned enough from each other to retreat back to our predisposed positions, fortified with more
material to back up those positions.
Dave said, "we are blowing academic smoke". This is true.
The Turtle tried to give this string a terminal injection with a hypodermic needle. We are too addicted for it to be fatal.
Ifly expressed an admiration for brevity. For that very reason, I untied the knot in this string and tried to slip away. Alas, brevity is not my
strong suit. I need monastery time.  
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k-rico
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The Quaalude Lesson
"At one time, the sleeping pill Quaalude was as big a problem in the United States as heroin and cocaine. But then, in a matter of just a few years,
it disappeared. If the successful strategy the DEA pursued in cracking down on Quaaludes had been followed when meth surfaced a few years later,
experts say it is unlikely the meth epidemic would ever have happened."
"Just like Quaaludes, the key ingredients in methamphetamine are so chemically sophisticated that they can only be made by a few large manufacturers.
When meth abuse started appearing on the West Coast in the mid-80s, Haislip and his colleagues at the DEA were confident that with a new chemical
control law for meth's key ingredients, ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, meth too would be beaten. But they were wrong."
The profits made by the pharmaceutical companies by unstuffing stuffed-up noses with pills were more important.
The next time you get a cold, buy a box of Kleenex.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/faqs/quaaludes....
[Edited on 12-3-2008 by k-rico]
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BajaGringo
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I agree with your point on that k-rico. The problem is that the base ingredients of drugs like marijuana, cocaine and heroin are naturally grown...
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movinguy
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Not to drag this out any further, but here's an interesting point of view (from law enforcement):
www.leap.cc
Heard the head guy on the radio the other day - he's pretty convincing . . .
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