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ORphil
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No, no Tio. Don't dodge the main question I had. What about the CCC and the WPA building infrastructure for the common good of the people that we
still enjoy today? Communism? Left to the utilities, we wouldn't have fiber optic in many rural areas that we do now due to fed dollars. Not much
different from bringing electricity to the nation during the new deal.
If it makes sense to fund and alternative energy sources and programs to make the US more independent and enviromentally friendly no matter what your
"beliefs" are wouldn't that be a positive endeavour? Who is the loser? Oil.
I'm a c'monist. C'mon man.
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Tioloco
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Quote: Originally posted by ORphil  | No, no Tio. Don't dodge the main question I had. What about the CCC and the WPA building infrastructure for the common good of the people that we
still enjoy today? Communism? Left to the utilities, we wouldn't have fiber optic in many rural areas that we do now due to fed dollars. Not much
different from bringing electricity to the nation during the new deal.
If it makes sense to fund and alternative energy sources and programs to make the US more independent and enviromentally friendly no matter what your
"beliefs" are wouldn't that be a positive endeavour? Who is the loser? Oil.
I'm a c'monist. C'mon man. |
Not dodging anything comrade. Your favorite energy "alternatives" dont work and arent needed. We currently have over 100 years of fossil fuels alone.
This is about income redistribution and political control. In time, there will certainly be advancements in energy production that actually work. This
just aint it.
[Edited on 7-15-2024 by Tioloco]
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JDCanuck
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | JD,
Upon thinking about it solar powered AC can’t add heat to the environment the way that AC run off other sources can. In fact I feel a case can be
made that because 80% or more of the sun’s energy is reflected or reradiated off the solar panels they actually may reduce the amount of heat stored
in the ground beneath them.
The AC unit uses the collected solar energy to move heat around rather than generating new heat. The combination isn’t making things hotter in the
way that AC powered by thermal generating stations can. |
RFClark: Solar may be the least heat producing energy source for AC units, but I was talking about the heat lost in the refrigeration cycle plus the
fact we pump the heat from inside where it would otherwise be absorbed by floors and walls to the outside where it is added to the atmospheric
temperatures.
I have never understood why people prefer multiple fans that create no actual cooling but add the heat from the work done by the motor to the inside
temps. An exhausting fan or fans located on the roof would make much more sense, at least then you would not be adding more heat to the interior.
Better yet, natural exhaust by low level windows or breezeways to draw in coolest air and high level exhausting windows or courtyards to discharge
like I saw commonly in older pre AC building designs in Mexico.
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JDCanuck
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I stayed at one hotel in Puerto Escondido that people loved to come and sit at the restaurant as it was naturally cooled by an entrance breezeway
facing the ocean. A large pool was located in the middle of the courtyard and the breeze that flowed over it provided evaporative cooling that
eventually flowed through the dining area at the far end and then up past all the rooms.
I think this was what was behind the reflection pools commonly built at entrances in Middle Eastern home designs and central courtyards. But if I
remember your new home design correctly, you have built something similar into your layout, minus the water pool to provide the evaporative cooling.
I'm assuming you have a high level window in your upper hallway at the far end away from the access stairs?
I also wanted to (but of course never did) put in water sourced AC units. No one I spoke to in La Paz had any idea what I was talking about and the
one supplier we found in Northern US was not helpful in shipping it. Essentially, hot water pre-heaters that you pumped the heat from the rooms into
for AC.
[Edited on 7-17-2024 by JDCanuck]
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mtgoat666
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Planet Sets Record for Hottest Day Twice in a Row
Researchers with the European Union’s Copernicus Climate Change Service said Sunday was Earth’s hottest day. Then it happened again on
Monday.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/24/climate/hottest-day-earth...
Monday 22 July 2024 was the hottest day ever recorded on Earth, with a global average of about 62.87 degrees
Fahrenheit, or 17.15 degrees Celsius, preliminary data showed — beating a record that had been set just one day before.
[Edited on 7-24-2024 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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RFClark
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Solar AC cools the environment and your home!
Goat,
Got Solar AC that works during the frequent power outages and actually cools the enviroment?
Mechanical AC has received a large amount of bad press of late. The “truth” is somewhat more complicated. The AC isn’t the problem. The energy
source for the AC is the problem. Thermal generating stations are around 30% - 40% efficient. The balance of the energy is released into the
environment. As dealt with below Solar powered AC actually reduces the amount of local heating rather than increasing it.
First a discussion on building heat loads that mechanical AC must overcome and how to minimize them.
Calculating the heat load in a building can be complicated as there are a number of heat sources.
1) direct solar heating - the sun shines on things and they get hot
2) Conductive heating from the air. Buildings require air exchanges about 6 times per hour. Hot air comes in, cold air goes out. There are expensive
devices to transfer cold from the outgoing air to the incoming hot air.
3) radiant cooling or heating from the ground under the building. Concrete slab construction can adsorb heat and reradiate it when the air is cooler.
Usually the ground heats up as hot weather occurs. Areas adjacent to bodies of water tend to have ground temperatures close to the temperature of the
water. In areas where the ground water is cool or cold this can be a large plus in cooling. Concrete slabs can also store cold from daytime AC
operation and release it at night reducing night time AC requirements.
4) occupants and activities like cooking generate an internal heat load as does the sun shining in through exterior windows.
The first line of defense in cooling a building is to prevent the building from heating up in the first place. This is accomplished by reflecting as
much of the heat as possible from the exterior. Shadow the walls and windows with eves. Use heat reflective paint and/or material backed up by
insulation to reduce heating by radiation through the roof and walls. Reflecting first then insulating reduces the amount of AC required to cool the
interior space.
A second and often overlooked AC load is water vapor. Humidity reduction is energy intensive. Humidity introduced by air exchange is a major part of a
home’s AC budget. Unlike direct solar heating humidity reduction is a 24hr a day problem. Well sealed doors and windows make a huge difference in
the amount of energy required to provide a comfortable environment.
Unsealed cement surfaces adsorb and retain moisture increasing the time required to cool down interior space. Sealed insulated walls allow rooms to
cool faster and allow comfort at higher temperatures by reducing both humidity and interior radiative loading.
Mini Splits are very efficient partly because most of the heat producing parts are outside and most of the cold parts are inside. Unlike systems
employing ducting outside or in interior hot spaces which loose substantial amounts of potential cooling to the environment, mini splits deliver most
of their cooling to the interior of the home.
There has been much discussion of the contribution of AC units to the “heat Island” effect. Solar powered AC actually reduces the amount of heat
reaching buildings and the ground providing a net reduction by direct solar heating making solar AC a part of the solution. Additionally AC generates
significant amounts of relatively pure water in areas with high humidity. The 3.5T of AC we run generates about 20L/hr with a 90% exterior humidity
reading.
“This study showed there were clear differences between the temperature directly below the panels, the gaps between panels, and the control group.
Between spring and autumn, the ground underneath solar panels was cooler by up to 5.2 °C on a daily average compared to both the control group and
the gap between panels. In addition to the temperature recorded in the ground, the air temperature was also found to be significantly cooler by up to
6 °C, however, it should be noted that the air turned slightly warmer under the solar panels during the night.“ https://www.harvestsunsolar.com/do-solar-panel-installations...
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caj13
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Actually Richard - I do know of a system that colls my house - and is good for the environment (less Greenhouse gasses) :
My home is ICF - with SIPS roof - very energy efficient. Heating is done by radiant heat - using a standard electric hot water heater for that
system
Cooling - i do have swamp coolers that are pretty good on most days. If i need to up the cooling - I run 3 separate mini splits in various rooms -
depending on where i need it.
All of this is powered by Solar - 10 KW Tesla system - that runs the house - including my water system pump - AND charges my EV. Since I'm on NEM
2 - i always run a surplus in producing vrs use - so I don't need a battery system. I always have surplus credits on my "bill". I could put one in -
but on the occasions the electrical goes down - i just patch in a 10 KW generator - for the hours - typically 4 - 12 hours - maybe once or twice a
year. the power is out.
My total electrical bill is 10 bucks a month - for some hokey fee. and I am charging my EV - so pretty much - no fuel costs.
so - all of my electrical needs covered by a single solar system - that paid for itself in 4 years - and now is just sitting there making money for
me - without burning any fossil fuels - and not only that - powering other peoples homes as well!
I know how inconvenient it is when facts slap down your Biases and political dogma. sorry!
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RFClark
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We live off the grid 100% so batteries. The current refrigeration systems don’t use CFCs. The areas within 600M of the Pacific coast have a
humidity problem more than a temperature problem. There is also a overcast problem to be dealt with.
All of which we address! We too charge our PHEV, recycle all of our water and use passive heating and cooling from 2000 Sq Ft of ground level concrete
slab.
All of the humidity removed from the air is captured and reused so rather than using water to cool the house we generate around 100+ L of water per
day.
I would point out that in addition to using water for cooling that your heating system produces about 40% of the BTUs that a heat pump system
produces. But running on Solar that’s less important.
The point of my post is that you can live off the grid and not give up anything except your electric bill. I think we invested about $18K in our
system 12Kw power, 9Kw solar and 20Kw of batteries.
Summer is done here and the night time temperature runs in the high 60s to low 70s. Most days we haven't run the AC for the last 2 weeks.
We also have an inverter propane plant which we ran about 25hrs in the last 4 months. 4 hrs of which are the monthly load test.
I’m not sure where we disagree as the system needs be designed for the location and intended use both of which are different.
Absolutely none of which is connected with anything past good engineering and return on investment!
[Edited on 9-25-2024 by RFClark]
[Edited on 9-25-2024 by RFClark]
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JDCanuck
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Caj and RFC: Thanks for all that interesting input. Now that we are back full time in Canada we are reassessing our local best options.
Minisplits remain our first choice for both heating and cooling, but solar panels and storage batteries are not economically feasible yet, even with
the new rebates they finally introduced.
Our government is now increasingly legislating no installed nat gas at all, and this is just crazy. If we have a long term power outage in winter, we
will have zero options for heating. Even the local gas pumps and credit card facilities will be down IF we can find a generator in a store. Almost
everyone previously at least had nat gas fireplaces to keep SOME heat in the house. They are now illegal. I guess we will have to run out and gather
wood and light a wood fire inside in some kind of container, poisoning ourselves in the process. Wood fireplaces and wood heaters were mainly
outlawed years ago.
My best idea so far is to buy an EV with enough V2L or V2H battery storage to run our essential power needs for 3 days. A backup battery system like
the Power Wall is another option but won't in addition power our transportation at reduced costs, so we are looking for a newer EV to replace our
Leaf. So far BYD has the best value options in that area but of course our government won't let us buy them, so we are looking at far more expensive
union manufactured ones that might fit the bill.
[Edited on 9-25-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JDCanuck
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Interesting article on possible expansion of Geothermal Energy in NA:
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/profiles-clean-energy-form...
I see a lot of these plants are located near the San Andreas fault
Has anyone been able to drop by the ones located just south of Mexicali for a tour?
[Edited on 9-29-2024 by JDCanuck]
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JZ
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RFClark
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JZ,
You left out “buy a multimillion dollar beachfront estate! But, no names!
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JDCanuck
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Perhaps we can all just usurp the plans of further wealth and influence for their own purposes the privileged are forcing on us and just continue to
do what we know is best for the environment. Far easier to take the funds they leave us and invest in reduced energy demand on our own.
The challenge is in keeping them from taking our wealth from us in the meantime and throwing it at their hair brained vote buying schemes. Solar? I'm
all for it, but let me buy the cheapest and most efficient available systems so I can actually afford it. EV's and hybrids? Love them, why don't they
let me buy the best valued ones for my purposes and instead force me to buy ones from their chosen union manufacturers? Present governments are
actually opposing my ability to buy the best, most practical I can find and taking my resources from me at the same time.
This is why it's not really surprising the CO2 output per capita in both Canada and the US is actually higher in year 2023 than it was in 2020 despite
all that money they spent to supposedly do the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
[Edited on 9-30-2024 by JDCanuck]
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Salsa
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"Got Solar AC that works during the frequent power outages and actually cools the enviroment?"
Sounds like there is a Perpetual Motion Machine in your future!!!
Where does the solar energy magically go to making it cool?
I need one for my Arizona house.
Don
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RFClark
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Salsa,
The sun shines on the ground and it gets hot! The sun shines on solar panels 19% of the energy turns into electricity more is reflected back into the
sky and the ground under the solar panels is in the shade and cooler. The electricity runs ACs and charges batteries! No fuel burned and no CO2
produced in the process because it’s off the grid!
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Tioloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | Salsa,
The sun shines on the ground and it gets hot! The sun shines on solar panels 19% of the energy turns into electricity more is reflected back into the
sky and the ground under the solar panels is in the shade and cooler. The electricity runs ACs and charges batteries! No fuel burned and no CO2
produced in the process because it’s off the grid! |
You should check out the solar "farm" west of Gila Bend, AZ. You can not only feel the increased heat in the area but you can see the "heat wave"
above and around it for miles away when the angle of the sun is just right.
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chippy
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I drove thru gila in the beginning of august. Truck temp guage had it at 50/51 celsius 
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RFClark
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Is your point that prior to adding the solar panel farms Gila Bend was a “Garden Spot” in August? I’ve driven through there since the early
‘70s it’s never been a “garden spot” in the summer!
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | | Is your point that prior to adding the solar panel farms Gila Bend was a “Garden Spot” in August? I’ve driven through there since the early
‘70s it’s never been a “garden spot” in the summer! |
Nothing in Maricopa county would ever be called a garden spot! Crikey! How do people live there? This year phoenix had over 113 continuous days of
>100 deg weather! Can you imagine being unable to go outside for 3 to 4 months straight?
[Edited on 10-2-2024 by mtgoat666]
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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Cliffy
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Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete
Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the
panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.
And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the
ground when they die.
Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!
[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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