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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete
Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the
panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.
And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the
ground when they die.
Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!
[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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surabi
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Vast tracts of land are clearcut, with all the natural wildlife displaced by developers to build housing. It never comes back because it is then
covered in houses and roads.
Clearing to put up solar panels doesn't "kill the earth". It isn't covered in concrete. Vegetation can grow back.
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  | | Is your point that prior to adding the solar panel farms Gila Bend was a “Garden Spot” in August? I’ve driven through there since the early
‘70s it’s never been a “garden spot” in the summer! |
No, my point is that the temperature has risen in the area of that solar panel installation because of the heat generated by it.
Another unintended consequence of "green energy". Not to mention what will happen when the panels are obsolete and it is abandoned.
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2450
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Looking forward to 2024
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Not “Green” just saving $$$!
For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!
The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.
https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete
Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the
panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.
And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the
ground when they die.
Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!
[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy] |
You are on point. Unfortunately, the environmentalists only care when it is in their backyard.
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2450
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Looking forward to 2024
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Feel free to explain how the building on the left heats up the earth more than the two on the right!
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Cliffy
Senior Nomad
Posts: 986
Registered: 12-19-2013
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How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.
Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by
qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.
Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.
You chose your position in life today by what YOU did yesterday
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mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18103
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
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Mood: Hot n spicy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete
Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the
panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.
And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the
ground when they die.
Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!
[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy] |
Your being pro-fossil fuel, and against PV and wind because PV and wind create waste is ridiculous. Fossil fuel power plants create waste. Green
house gas, combustion byproducts, waste/scrap equipment, etc.
Look at net results over the full power plant life cycle…. Fossil fuel is dirtier, more wasteful.
Woke!
“...ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country.” “My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America
will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.”
Prefered gender pronoun: the royal we
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surabi
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4443
Registered: 5-6-2016
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Thank you for calling out Cliffy's misconceptions he presents as fact.
It's amazing how many people will opine on things they have no experience with nor bother to research. Like those who've never driven EVs coming up
with all kinds of imagined reasons why they aren't practical, or why solar or wind energy "won't work".
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JDCanuck
Super Nomad
Posts: 1516
Registered: 2-22-2020
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy | How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.
Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by
qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.
Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.
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There was a time that Nuclear was heavily promoted as a green energy source. Then we had all those radioactive storage leaks at Haniford and in the
Hudson and later ***ishima. The latest is to pay town owners up front to store the waste in deep underground caverns and the present beneficiaries
will be long gone before it starts leaking. At 33% efficiency only 1/3 of the high amount of energy is converted to power, the rest is wasted into the
environment as heat, mainly to seawater cooling which boosts the ocean temps even more. There are better solutions
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7084
Registered: 8-5-2011
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One big reason there aren't more nukes is that they are by far the most expensive type of power plant to build, almost by factor of 10 when compared
to natural gas. And, when they wear out, the decommissioning costs are huge. People in southern California are still paying for San Onofre even though
it was shut down in 2012. Decommissioning will be complete 2028. That's 16 years of costs with no benefit.
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on
a commercial scale.
This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.
Not much more than a feel good photo.
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SFandH
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7084
Registered: 8-5-2011
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I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my
personal carbon footprint. 
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by SFandH | I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my
personal carbon footprint.
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Do you turn off your refrigerator in Tucson when you leave for BCS so you are creating less carbon unnecessarily?
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surabi
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4443
Registered: 5-6-2016
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco |
Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on
a commercial scale.
This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.
Not much more than a feel good photo.
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You missed the entire point. Which is that solar farms don't "kill the earth". As long as the area gets water, whether from rain or irrigation, and it
was a naturally vegetated area, whatever was cleared for the installation regenerates.
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RFClark
Super Nomad
Posts: 2450
Registered: 8-27-2015
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Mood: Looking forward to 2024
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Tioloco,
The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!
FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”!
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by RFClark | Tioloco,
The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!
FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”! |
You should go look at what type of equipment is used in large scale farming. It is heavily mechanized. Those solar panels would not allow for the
tractors to do what is needed.
Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be
extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.
I have an off grid house and am very familiar with how my solar panels, inverter and battery storage and backup diesel power generation works. I love
it for what it does but it is nowhere near being as convenient or reliable as being tied to the grid.
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surabi
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4443
Registered: 5-6-2016
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco |
Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be
extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.
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 As is obvious from the photo, there is only a
small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.
And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.
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Salsa
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What is the price of labor to hand pick the crop under the solar panels?
In Kalifornia it would be $25 or so per hour per govt mandate.
Don
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Tioloco
Super Nomad
Posts: 2294
Registered: 7-30-2014
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| Quote: Originally posted by surabi | | Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco |
Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be
extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.
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As is obvious from the photo, there is only a
small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.
And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.
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You have no concept of large scale agricultural production requirements and expectations.
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