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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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not mad its just the facts Phil just the facts
jerry and judi
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
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Mood: mellow
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Still comes back to the fact " MONEY TALKS " and it's still the 'ROOT OF ALL EVIL "
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tehag
Super Nomad
Posts: 1248
Registered: 1-8-2005
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LB
Money doesn't talk, it screams.
B Dylan
By the way, the LB golf course has been in operation for about 14 years and is irrigated entirely with treated effluent.
No, I don't work for them. Just a fact, that's all.
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bajalou
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4459
Registered: 3-11-2004
Location: South of the broder
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
and it's still the 'ROOT OF ALL EVIL " |
the origin of the phrase is a little different.
It is a common saying that “money is the root of all evil.” According to the Random House Dictionary of Proverbs and Sayings, the phrase first
appeared in English circa 1000 A.D. The saying originated in the New Testament. “For the love of money is the root of all evil.” Timothy, 6:10.
The original places the blame on the "the love of money", not the money itself.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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bancoduo
Banned
Posts: 1003
Registered: 10-3-2005
Location: el carcel publico mazatlan sin.
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| Quote: | By the way, the LB golf course has been in operation for about 14 years and is irrigated entirely with treated effluent.
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I thought LB was only 4 years old
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aquaholic
Nomad
Posts: 119
Registered: 9-2-2006
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...the golf course has been there since before LB's inception...
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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I always end up in this strange discussion about golf courses and the justification for them. I see the issue as location, location, location, period.
I just flat out think they are not suited for most coastline locations for a number of reasons. I'd be just as adament about parking lots in the same
locations, or Wal-Marts or one half dozen other things.
---
That's quite the anology there Jerry.
First off, our house was built by a Mexican not a gringo. Does it give them first shot at developing or destoying any domestic by-way. Of course it
does, or did. Today the floodgates are open with developers lined up at the door.
Have we not discussed the problems in Baja with utilities and infrastructure and the ability the keep pace and provide the necessary water and
habitats. Free reign is not always a good thing for whoever owns it or develops it. The pace and tempo should be restricted by the ability to insure
those new developments provide access and habitat suitable for indiginous displaced animals and provide the necessary infrastucture for people there.
I certainly think there is a world of difference between catching a few fish off the beach and building an irrigated swath of turf along the
coastline. You may see similarities but I certainly don't. How can you stretch the point so far??
There are other "facts" besides what you provide that address them from an impact stance. From the standpoint of losing valuable useable public land,
projects, closures and degradation of seashores is widespead. The more important areas should certainly be examined before grading or digging. There
could be far reaching implications. Like TONS of people.
I am not talking about fun for humans anyway, Iam talking about permanent distruction of a habitat or area that was historically part of human
culture and subsistance and habitat.
I suppose you could call golf a part of culture and I have no prob with it as a sport. It's the location that irks me. Of course if you abide with
the same credo Skeet has then ALL of planet earth will recycle itself to new again. New? No, altered. Maybe that's what I mean, altered.
I guess to me a lot of it has to do with the amount of alteration and how much it will benefit the human race and other earth inhabitants.. Same with
estuaries. Do you think it's ok to fill em in or dig em out for a marina or golf course?
How many will benefit? No, not people, those dang animals.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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well sharks then dont you think it prudent that you tear your restrant down on the waterfront in newport and let it go back to nature?? and give up
the parking too and the pavement and tear out the marinas too
if you really believe what your saying i suggest you be the first example
and
then ill believe to
if you buy a home on a coastal property in baja you are supporting the distruction of the same type of property you want other to leave alone
you cant have it both ways
jerry and judi
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ncampion
Super Nomad
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Registered: 4-15-2006
Location: Loreto
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Mood: Retired and Loving it
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Just got back form a great week in Loreto and I figured out the water problem. Every bathroom faucet, shower head, toilet and hose bib in Loreto
leaks water, 24/7. I don't think this is only in Loreto, in general, Mexico has not figured out plumbing as yet. As someone who lived on a sailboat
for several years (before watermakers) I had to carry every gallon we used in 5 gal. jerry jugs. It really bothers me to see leaking faucets. No
excuse for this any more. Just my 2 cents.
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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I disagree Jerry
I think you can have it both ways. That is my entire point, very good!
You say the inevitable is inevitable. I say we can control our destiny. I say we can learn how to not overwhelm or deplete our resources. I say let
the public decide collectively. A few rich executives can make decisions that will affect locals and tourists alike for eternity.
That's the problem you see. Just a black and white picture. .I don't see it that simple and your solution for me proving what, that I'm not a
hypocrit is to tear down the restaurant that was a home for 70 years. Where did I say 'NO CONSTRUCTION or DESTRUCTION WITHIN 100 FT OF THE OCEAN"?
I think intelligent use should be mandatory.
btw, Jerry you should know, we are not located right on the water. Exactly how far back do I think we should be from the water? Let me go measure...
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ncampion
Just got back form a great week in Loreto and I figured out the water problem. Every bathroom faucet, shower head, toilet and hose bib in Loreto
leaks water, 24/7. I don't think this is only in Loreto, in general, Mexico has not figured out plumbing as yet. As someone who lived on a sailboat
for several years (before watermakers) I had to carry every gallon we used in 5 gal. jerry jugs. It really bothers me to see leaking faucets. No
excuse for this any more. Just my 2 cents. |
Loreto folks are very much aware of this; if you were here recently you may have seen major street work, largely to replace old pipes. And 5000 water
meters have been ordered.
But the water dept folks are still a bit screwy. They cannot, by law, cut off your water, but they have BIG late payment fees, so maybe half the
people in town don't pay their bill. That leaves them short of money for infrastructure, and also there is little incentive to fix leaks if you never
pay the bill. A couple of days ago we went in to pay for the rest of the year in advance; they won't allow that anymore, go figure, turning down money
in advance.
Still, that's only part of the problem. Leaks or no leaks, a population increase from 12,000 to 50,000-100,000 will result in more consumption.
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jerry
Super Nomad
Posts: 1354
Registered: 10-10-2003
Location: loreto
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sharks yes i know your across the street from the water and id say a lot closer to the water then most golf courses
so your place was a home for 70 years its still close to the waterfront and your paturns are staying at the marinas and motels and i could say they
are destroying the place with polution ?? would that be fare??
so your saying for you its ok but for someone else its not
rich executives arnt going to be living in loreto bay so what about the people who want to live there shouldnt they have a choice??
i dont believe that rich exacatives and developers are at fault thier doing busness just like you are and the people who patronize these places are
people too
some like golf some some like living in chicken coops and some like upscale restrants who are we to say they shouldnt have the choices
jerry and judi
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Sharksbaja
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5814
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Newport, Mulege B.C.S.
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Jerry, whatever, you really skew my point well. Bravo! Your generalizations don't work because you are talking about stuff done. I am talking about
things to come. Things that exclude you, me and the general public.
I think golf courses on the coast suck. You have your idea of growth , I have mine. Mine excludes wasted lands for the elite few. Call it what you
want. You say I contribute to coastal distruction by owning a place near the water, I say nay.
Jerry, rich executives don't NEED another coastal golf course, do they. What to play on or to make more money?
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Crusoe
Senior Nomad
Posts: 731
Registered: 10-14-2006
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Jerry.....You are making some extreemly unintelligent parralels and asumptions here....... Sharks has one small place........Maybe if L.B.C. were
building chicken coops no one would be squacking about anything at all.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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WTF?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
But the water dept folks are still a bit screwy. They cannot, by law, cut off your water, but they have BIG late payment fees, so maybe half
the people in town don't pay their bill. That leaves them short of money for infrastructure, and also there is little incentive to fix leaks if you
never pay the bill. |
It would seem that it's the townsfolk who are screwy and irresponsible. Waste water and don't pay because they can?
Apparently, there's gluttony and thievery enough for everyone.
Lorentanos and Loreto Bay deserve each other.
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Paula
Super Nomad
Posts: 2219
Registered: 1-5-2006
Location: Loreto
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Jerry, take a look back at the history of Nopolo. Our Loreto neighbor has lived in this town all of his 50+ years. He tells us that years ago all of
Loreto packed up and went to the beach on weekends. there were just 2 beautiful sand beaches to choose from. One was Nopolo, and the other Puerto
Escondido. They had the best sand, the best fishing, and the best views. Loretanos loved those places! Our neighbor's family favored Puerto
Escondido, and he has missed very few Saturdays fishing there in his life. . A number of years ago, Fonatur took ownership of these beaches, and
also of Primer Agua in the mountains, where a local family had ranched for generations. Primer Agua was developed as an "oasis" for swimming and
picnicking. Nice, but they haven't maintained it and it has been closed since more or less 2002-- sits there as a ruin. Maybe they'll fix it
someday. That family has accepted their loss and moved on. For years there was a nice beach for locals just north of the former El Camino Real
Hotel. And the people could fish from the pier and "the wall" at Puerto Escondido, though the beach was decimated to build the harbor. But times are
changing, and it seems that with the entrance of API and Singlar at Escondido, and Loreto Bay in Nopolo, bigger things are in the works, and there is
no room on the beaches for the families who have always enjoyed them so. If there is any benefit for these people to compensate their loss, it will
be in low wage jobs and an increased cost of living, leaving them economically worse off than before, and facing increased cost of living. Hmmmm....
I guess this can't really be called a benefit.
Now, Jerry, I know from reading your posts that you are a man who cares for the everyday people. You stood up for the gill netters, saying they had
every right to feed their families. So if the investors who are moving into Mexico are entitled to their gains here, and the new wealthy tourist who
wants golf and massage therapy deserve to have all that their money can buy, what are the families who have always cared for this land entitled to? I
sure hope they can have an occasional glass of clean water, and that they can live happily with so little as they always have, going to a beautiful
beach and grilling up some fresh caught fish after a week of work. Something tells me you would like to see that too. But it can't all go on in one
little place. There just aren't the resources to support it all. So who comes first in your book?
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
Posts: 1997
Registered: 12-4-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
But the water dept folks are still a bit screwy. They cannot, by law, cut off your water, but they have BIG late payment fees, so maybe half
the people in town don't pay their bill. That leaves them short of money for infrastructure, and also there is little incentive to fix leaks if you
never pay the bill. |
It would seem that it's the townsfolk who are screwy and irresponsible. Waste water and don't pay because they can?
Apparently, there's gluttony and thievery enough for everyone.
Lorentanos and Loreto Bay deserve each other. |
So is there anywhere where a low flat rate for water wouldn't lead to waste? What do you want these people here to do? Loreto Bay and this boom have
just started, Fonatur just gave these developers Loreto's water. Loreto is responding. They've torn up the main streets for new water lines. They've
ordered meters to begin metering water. They've got a publicity campaign to try to convince more people to pay their bills. Seems that Loretanos are
moving pretty fast for any municipality, on either side of the border. And I suspect that as long as the law prohibits shutting off water, failure to
pay bills is not limited to Loreto.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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Yes there has been a golf course there for the many years that Fonatur's development was considered a failed development with no tourists and sat
there empty, a closed airport nearby, I assume because no tickets could be sold because nobody wanted to go there.
Things are different now tho. Why, because there is a huge marketing machine called the Internet that makes it easy to get your pitch in front of
millions of readers who will jump at any opportunity to be part of anyplace someone calls paradise.
This is from the LB website: "Amenities will include two 18-hole championship golf courses".
http://www.loretobay.com/cms/page1203.cfm
So now we're over 400 million gallons of water per year.
And the point that it is effluent that is used to keep golf courses green is an argument to fool the folks worried about pollution and has no bearing
on this discussion. My point is that there is not sufficient water.
Effluent was "pure" water before people peeed, crapped, showered, and dumped paint, cleansers, and insecticides in it. It just doesn't come from
nowhere!
So 400 million gallons of water, minus the urine, paint thinner, and undrunk beer is needed to get 400 million gallons of stinky, fecus contaminated,
chemicalized polluted goop, oops I mean effluent.
I've been on some golf courses that I thought were absolutely beautiful. Large trees, woods surrounding the fairways, lush green grass, beautiful
flowers along the walkways songbirds in the trees. At Loreto bay you're going to need to be concerned about rattlesnakes when you retrieve the ball
from the cup and vultures swooping down and carrying the kids away.
It's just a real dumb place to build golf courses (plural). It's hot, windy, there's no shade, and one more time
THERE'S NO WATER.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
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Mood: muted
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Ok folks, I'm going to stop contributing to this thread and am taking another course of action.
I recommend to those that want their points of view known to first set up at least two google news alerts: 1. "Loreto Bay", 2. Econergy. When the
alerts send you links to articles that you have a disagreement with, send an email to the author and/or news organization expressing your point of
view. Back up your statements with links to information produced by reliable sources, such as the Harvard study.
The various themes are:
1. Greenwashing for profit
2. Destruction of the local water supply
3. If you believe like I do that the wind turbine idea is a COMPLETE greenwash, go after that.
4. Desalination systems are a last resort and the briney wasteproduct is a big problem for Loreto Bay. It can't be discharged into the Sea because of
its fragile nature in the area.
5. Human rights and the current state of the imported workers.
6. The likely detrimental effects of LB on the fragile National Underwater Park right off the coast.
Write to news organizations and trade/technical organizations. The renewable energy organizations would be very interested in a project purported to
provide all the power for a development. Ask the what they think of LBs statements and plans.
Human rights organizations will be very interested in the work camps and their condition. Especially camps being built by an American company in a
foreign country.
Ocean environmentalists will be interested in plans for a desalination plant with discharge into the Sea of Cortez in addition to the common sewage
outfalls.
Hydrologists will be interested in the depletion of the aquifers and subsequent salt water intrusion.
Greenwashing is currently a hot topic. Citibank is bragging about their new move to green investments and Loreto Bay is among their first, granted
it's a paltry sum for Citibank, but I'm sure they wouldn't want one of their first investments to turn out to be a associated to yet another Mexican
real estate debacle.
The financing of all of this is the sexy part. And everybody likes good sex stories.
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Phil S
Super Nomad
Posts: 1205
Registered: 10-28-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: After 34 years. Still in love w/ my wife
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Old hippie. Your beginning to sound like an old record. How about something for a change that would be positive about what is going on in Baja.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I'm sure there is something down there that is positive you could reflect on.
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