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rob
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Registered: 10-19-2004
Location: Pacific Coast, BCS
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FlyFishinPam - properties ARE grandfathered - but before the major law change in 1988. If you can find a photo of the offending item taken or
apparently taken before 1988, or get a letter signed by an aged local stating that said object existed years ago - no problema! If you see what I mean
. . . .
These federal zone laws are clear, concise and available to all - in Spanish of course. What is not nearly as clear is the exact point of "highest
maximum tide" . . . our beach here on the Pacific STILL has clear high tide marks from the big hurricane of Sep 2001 - only they weren't tide marks,
it was where the flooding arroyo dropped the trees on the beach.
I hired a local survey engineer do our federal marine zone survey - but when I found him measuring the "seaweed marks" on the rocks to determine high
tide point, we parted company. There is only one scientific way to find the high tide point, I am told. You get a marine group to put a tide machine
on your beach for 6 months and take readings (at hideous cost) - they then feed this into a calculus function, derive some sort of constant for YOUR
beach - and there you go.
For the rest of us - find a surveyor who agrees with you and make him your - special - friend.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8813
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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"find a surveyor who agrees with you and make him your - special - friend."
that will ONLY work if he works for the local Profepa and that WILL not happen...they work "by-the-book"
Profepa has he LAST word
if it was built since the law then you NEED a permit period.
if you don't have one "prepare for punishment"
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Russ
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Registered: 7-4-2004
Location: Punta Chivato
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toneart , that info was passed on to me and I don't know the facts. It would have been in Sunday or Mondays La Paz paper. And with a bad case of CRS
it could have been the governor.
Pam, I have sent SeaWatch two or three E-mails> I'll try the other person tonight. I'm not even sure that what they are doing is illegal. It's
just a shame that yesterday we had bait balls in the bay and tonight there are NONE. Thank you and Susan/Bob for your kind thoughts. I would like to
see every fidiecomiso or title come with an information packet explaining/informing people of the possibilities that there are local and federal
regulations to be considered prior to any improvements or changes to the property. And give some resources to investigate those regulations. Maybe
like a discloser statement in the States. I don't care if it is only in Spanish. That's what our friends love to help us with and we learn a bit more
in the doing. Regarding the federal zone: yes I did put improvements on my land abutting the federal restriction zone and I will be happy (NOT) to pay
the piper. Once that is taken care of I'm told I can apply for a concession with an annual free and that should help with any future complaints. I
have a problem there too. Someone as already applied for the concession. I'll worry about that after solving this set of problems. I do think that we
will be hearing a lot more about this though because PROFEPA has gone rabid. CACHING! $
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Russ
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They also use a phrase that means "mean high tide" and it kinda depends on who does the survey and what the mood is. And they set the zone some where
behind, land side, of that, then no encroachment/improvements 20 meters beyond that.Also the beach comes and goes seasonally and here it's the summer
when it goes. I was sitting in tall cotton until we had a high tide with a storm and I lost about 20 meters. Since the high tides this week didn't go
over the old high tide berm and it is building up again I should be okay.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by lencho
I just did some poking around, and the only legal definition of the federal zone I could find is in the Ley General de Bienes Nacionales where it
specifies 20 meters beyond the MAXIMUM ANNUAL HIGH TIDE.
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That is correct. And, I can tell you from experience, that if the survey happens on a year when tides were exceptionally high, you are screwed.
Especially considering the fact that the surveys are not taken yearly - more like every five-ten years.
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Pescador
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Registered: 10-17-2002
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Russ, in San Lucas cove they came in and did a survey and put cement markers with a brass cap on the Federal Zone line, did they not do that in Punta
Chivato?
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oladulce
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Location: bcs
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Yesterday the Ingeniero who's been acting as our SEMARNAT liason told me PROFEPA (La Paz) is currently shut down because they ran out of money!
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Bob and Susan
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Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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not true
i was there monday and will be there today
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Osprey
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The mojoneros, the cement monuments, I am told, are good for 15 years. There is some strange science at work around here -- one day I saw two Mexican
workmen in swimsuits in a rubber raft, a few meters from the shorline, holding a wooden marker (vertical, touching the bottom) being read by a guy
with a transom up on the beach. I'm no Pythagoras but that reading wouldn't tell you much and it would not have a long life no matter where that
particular science was aimed.
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Russ
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Location: Punta Chivato
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Bob and Susan
Good luck with PROFEPA today. You sound like you have been around the block with them already. My friends were there Monday & Tuesday and had
very successful meetings. See what you can find out about their sweep through Mulege area last week. Hope to hear good things about your meetings too.
Your project is looking really nice now. Is Efren still your contractor. He built my 1st house and is honest, caring and smart. Please say hola to him
for me. Russ
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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Minnow
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Everyone thinking of buying on the beach in Mexico should read this thread. Russ, please keep us updated on what becomes of this.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Diver
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 11-15-2004
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Can someone post the location and phone number for the PROFEPA office ?
Thanks.
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Russ
Elite Nomad
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Location: Punta Chivato
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This is what is at the bottom of my papers:
Colima 320 E/A Serdan y Guillermo Prieta, La Paz, BCS CP23060 Tel 01 (612) 123 0502
But when Bob & Susan return maybe they could update this.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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craiggers
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Registered: 3-2-2007
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It sounds like those affected need to band together and hire a lawyer to fight PROFEPA. Mean high tide has nothing to do with a high tide mark on the
beach caused by tidal surges due to storms or other anomolies such as a sunami. In fact, by definition, it will always be somewhere seaward of the
"highest high water mark".
Mean high tide is the average of all the high tides at a given location over an 18 yr period without local anomolies. It also happens to be a poor way
of establishing a property line. This is because mean tidal measurments establish the height of the waters surface and not where the water intersects
the land. This means that as beach sand erodes and the approach to the property steepens, the property line moves landward. This is also why they
can push you back 20 m away from a cliff face that intersects the mean high tide mark.
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Bob and Susan
Elite Nomad
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Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Mulege BCS on the BAY
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The Profepa did come to the "bay" last week
russes address is correct....
320 Colima St between Serdan y Guillermo Prieta, La Paz, BCS CP23060 Tel 01 (612) 123 0502
it's in a house near the CCC store
It WAS NOT a "raid"!!!
it was an audit for permits and nothing else
the word "citation" means something different in this context
it means they "tell" you Profepa is entering your property to conduct an audit...nothing else
if you fail the audit then...you need to address it
no one was targeted
at least 14 members came to my place
all were very profesional and nice.
they had INM people from other areas accompany them to avoid problems
they told me out of 100 properties audited 90% were NOT in compliance
I was not in compliance for the construction...
My Enviornmental Permit was not complete
I received NO fine
You do need to reply to Porfepa within 5 days
I did
I did have to post a "refundable bond" to continue construction
This was paid at the bank...
I was in compliance for the "federal zone"
NO problems there
The people at Profepa were completly Fair and Reasonable
Professional ALL the way.
The lesson here is:
if you have built since the law about the Enviormental Permit you NEED a permit NOW
APPLY NOW
and
DO NOT start construction until you have a "completed" Enviormental Permit PERIOD!!!
there will be some "unhappy campers" next winter...watch for the whining
later
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Russ
Elite Nomad
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Way to go!!! Bob & Susan I'm really happy for you! I guess the secret is to address the issue promptly. Below is a copy of a card I just received
for PROFEPA.
Bahia Concepcion where life starts...given a chance!
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oldhippie
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This is interesting to me because I recently bought a house on the Mexican coastline, although only 0.7 miles south of the border, but nonetheless in
Mexico. The highest of high tides around here are in the first two weeks of January. Plus, the winter storms scoop away the beach sand resulting in
practically the disappearance of the beach during these high tides. The water comes up to the 30 foot or so bluff that I'm on top of and maybe 50
meters back from. So I'm close to federal zone.
It's amazing how the sand comes back in the spring and the beach reappears. I've determined by observation that the winter "wash out" moves the sand
only slightly off shore and then it comes back by normal wave action after the winter storms dissipate.
Anyway it seems reasonable to me to find out when the highest of high tides occur in your area using tide charts, determine where the high water mark
is then, and then measure back the required distance from there. That should define the limits of the federal zone by anybody's definition.
As a side note, if you ever come to Playas de Tijuana and look at the coastal development by the bullring, you'll see abandoned, dilapidated buildings
right on the beach front. I've heard, and it seems reasonable, that the Government has determined these old structures are too close to what is now
the shoreline and has frozen development, essentially making the land, and buildings atop, worthless.
IF global warming is true and the ocean levels are rising, there may be many more of these types of problems in the next couple of decades.
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Roberto
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There's another part to the high tide thing. I don't remember all the details, but it's something a (Mexican) friend of mine ran into and explained to
me. It has to do with how level the ground is next to the water. For example, if a hill starts right at the water's edge, as long as there is
elevation, the land is all part of the Federal Zone. Indeed an island that is one big hill would be an example of that. Once again, I don't know all
the details, but I am sure this much is correct.
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vandenberg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
There's another part to the high tide thing. I don't remember all the details, but it's something a (Mexican) friend of mine ran into and explained to
me. It has to do with how level the ground is next to the water. For example, if a hill starts right at the water's edge, as long as there is
elevation, the land is all part of the Federal Zone. Indeed an island that is one big hill would be an example of that. Once again, I don't know all
the details, but I am sure this much is correct. |
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oldhippie
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I think I understand what you are saying, perhaps this is an example. There was a planned development of perhaps 20 houses here in playas on top of
the bluff. The developer had it all planned out and was selling lots. It turns out that the maps being used to determine the federal zone were 20 or
more years old so the Government did a new survey.
The result of which was that to go ahead with the development the developer had to get a federal zone concession and build a significant barrier both
deep into and high above ground level at the base of the bluff to combat erosion.
The development is now being re-engineered with fewer houses further back from the edge of the bluff. That then will need approval and the developer
is hoping the retaining wall requirement and buying a concession will be eliminated.
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]
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