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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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Barry A. You are absolutely right, it's like giving to the begger mafia, if no one gives them a limosna, they have to stop. Did you know that the
beggers make an average of 75 USDollars on bad days and at least 300 USDollars per day on high season?
Dennis, the judge is most of the time on the cops side.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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Mango
Senior Nomad
Posts: 685
Registered: 4-11-2006
Location: Alta California &/or Mexicali
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bajatastic
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I've only paid a bribe once, and it was just so I didn't have to spend the night in jail for something serious someone with me did, unbeknownst to me.
I was completely innocent; but, guilt by association, hard concrete floors, and roaches don't quite do it for me,... sorry.. a little $$ and I was
out of there and out of town the next day counting my blessings.
I have a knack of staying out of trouble and respecting law enforcement is key to that. There are good cops and bad ones. I think paying bribes
comes down to what can be gained and/or lost. As a rule I try to avoid paying a bribe; but, if your going to get screwed it might not be a bad way
out. In Mexico, just like in the USA, it is good to know your rights and protect them. Like most things in life there is no black and white answer.
About a year ago, I got pulled over for doing 120 KPH in a 60 KPH zone by a federal policeman. I was ready to pay my fine and face my maker. I
didn't offer him a bribe, nor would I pay one; because, I was guilty. When the cop asked me why I was going so fast, I said, "Yo soy tonto" (There
were other reasons.. but it boils down to the fact I was being a fool) He gave me my papers and sent me on my way without a fine. I drive much
slower now just to pay him back.
Honesty works wonders, and as Santiago found out.. often you can use it to your advantage.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
Dennis, the judge is most of the time on the cops side. |
Evidently, the city fathers don't want this to change. For some reason, they accept the situation as it is. It must serve a purpose for them
although I can't imagine that roadside extortation could be of any value to anybody other than the police.
So, what we have is institutionalized extortion and terror tactics with the tacit or otherwise approval of the government that hires the police and
the judges.
Why arn't the travelling public made aware of this? Why arn't they told that the minute they cross the border, they are fair game to be extorted
with the approval of the government which runs the city?
Ferna...Your statement is beyond comprehension.
[Edited on 11-13-2007 by DENNIS]
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
I say again, "IF NOBODY PAID MORDIDA, THERE WOULD BE NO MORDIDA"------that is not a "value judgement", it's a FACT, it seems to me.
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True...But most of what's being described here isn't MORDIDA.
MORDIDA is an option.
EXTORTION ain't.
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The Gull
Super Nomad
Posts: 2223
Registered: 8-28-2003
Location: Rancho Descanso, BCN
Member Is Offline
Mood: High
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Barry
Explain how this is not a value judgment.
Thus, you "enable" this corruption to continue. Without enableing folks cooperating with the crooks, there would be no corruption.
Actually, you may be right about it not being a value judgment as it looks more like an accusation. Terribly sad that you could not absorb the
"spirit" of what I wrote regarding the pack approach.
Descending on the opinion of another is OK when you are in the vocal majority, right guys?
I valued the very first posting, the rest, including mine, added nothing. How'z that for a value judgment - can I get in the club?
�I won\'t insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.� William F. Buckley, Jr.
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SDRonni
Nomad
Posts: 481
Registered: 8-28-2006
Location: Serra Mesa/Rosarito
Member Is Offline
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Do you think the toll road is "safe" on a weekday around 10-10:30 a.m. or would you suggest always taking the free road?
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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SDRonni..........
It's as safe as it will get. There will be plenty of traffic. I get the feeling that you've been disproportionatly frightened by all the horror
stories here. Learn the speed limits and obey them. That's all you can do.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The Gull
Explain how this is not a value judgment.
Thus, you "enable" this corruption to continue. Without enableing folks cooperating with the crooks, there would be no corruption.
Actually, you may be right about it not being a value judgment as it looks more like an accusation. Terribly sad that you could not absorb the
"spirit" of what I wrote regarding the pack approach.
Descending on the opinion of another is OK when you are in the vocal majority, right guys?
I valued the very first posting, the rest, including mine, added nothing. How'z that for a value judgment - can I get in the club?
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Good morning, Gull------
I must admit I am confused. I can see how you would think it "sad" that I don't understand, but I really don't understand any of what you say here.
I had not even considered the "pack" angle------I simply gave my opinion-----
-----and I still think that anybody who pays mordida is "part of the problem" and not part of the solution, so yes that is an "accusation" without a
doubt.
This particular subject has long confounded me, and I simply cannot understand why others don't see it the same way as I do. But that is my problem,
and I will continue to live with it.
barry
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
This particular subject has long confounded me, and I simply cannot understand why others don't see it the same way as I do. But that is my problem,
and I will continue to live with it.
barry |
Quite possibly it's because many, if not most, arn't as proactive in seeking a solution to the problem. They just want their problems to go away.
For most travelers in Baja, defying authority in any way is unimaginable. Law abiding citizens in our culture don't do that. In most cases, the
opportunity never arises.
For the millionth time here, I'll bring up the issue of solidarity and how strong we could be as a group if we had it. I have to think the reason
we don't is the same reason we don't confront rogue authority. We don't want to enter into a fight for ourselves let alone others.
I agree with you. Pay the judge if it becomes necessary, not the cop. Unfortunatly, paying the judge is twisted into a daunting task. I posted
above how I thought having a judge more accessible would remove that option as a threat. It would be an easy solution. My suggestion was all but
laughed at.
Anyway, doing the right thing has purposely been made an uncomfortable non-option and I can see why some choose the easy way out.
There will never be enough participation in doing the right thing to change the system. As Ferna pointed out, it's not just the police, it's the
judges as well. And when more is known, the nightmare starts at the top.
It's very discourageing for me.
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Cap
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 4-20-2007
Member Is Offline
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Think of the problems these corrupt cops have effectively targeting their victims.
Retired older guys:
Carrying more money, probably grumpy, and experience in dealing with authority has taught them respect but they have lost their fear, and have loads
of time to resolve the issue.
Younger guys:
Legitimately did something to be hassled about, impatient to get on with their travels, or back home to work, but have little money.
It can't be easy to deal with all of these gabachos locos, that won't or can't pay, support your family, mistress, and bring in enough to kick up a
cut to your boss.
I am being sarcastic in my sympathy but, as with any issue there is no cut and dry, one paragraph answer to this complex human drama/problem.
Fly low, land on roads.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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Again
| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
For the millionth time here, I'll bring up the issue of solidarity and how strong we could be as a group if we had it. I have to think the reason we
don't is the same reason we don't confront rogue authority. We don't want to enter into a fight for ourselves let alone others.
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A fabricated traffic stop is extortion. Assuming you have options is foolish.
Negotiating a bribe, being ticketed or not, going to court, being robbed, beaten and/or shot, having your car stolen, being arrested or released...
These are not your options.
Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time. 
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time. |
Agreed. What do you suggest?
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bajaguy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 9247
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline
Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Absent the threat or actual use of force or physical violence, there is ALWAYS negotiation......and it seems that if you/we take a hard line...."take
me to the station, I want to see the Chief/Judge", I have plenty of time, I'll wait....ALMOST always the attempt fails.
I believe that it is up to each of us to "know when to hold 'em and know when when to fold 'em. Personal security and a personal safety are always the
first consideration.
For me, if there is no threat or use of force/violence, I'll wait em out and play with their minds......
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time. |
Agreed. What do you suggest? |
1. Understand that corrupt cops are armed robbers.
2. Realize the risks involved with negotiation, argument or bravado.
3. Use common sense to avoid or mitigate involvement in highway robbery.
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Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
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Dave-----
If I truly believed what you just said, I would never go back down there.
------the cops (a few of them) may be "armed robbers", but I don't think, nor have I ever thought, that they were murderers, or even
assaulters--------but maybe things have changed.
I will continue to practice NEVER paying mordida-----bottom line: I am too cheap to give up my money when I have done nothing wrong, and am willing
to except the consequences.
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Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
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In the last couple of years it has gotten worse and now since congress did'nt give em amnesty and a free ride north it's worse then ever. I see it
more every time I go down.
The animosity toward gringo's is getting scary.
The average mex in baja now seem's to think it's his appointed duty to to seperate any gringo from his property, money, cars, real estate, whatever
any way he can!
And the only difference between the thug's and the police is the latter has the badge, otherwise the same.
Iv'e been going down for a long time and have thought about retiring there but the way the attitude is towards Americans now I dont think it will
happen.
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
Posts: 4981
Registered: 8-1-2002
Location: San Diego, CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: INTP-A
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
What do you suggest? |
Pizza Insurance.
If that's not successful for you, keep Dave's response in mind.
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
Affordable Domain Name Registration/Management & cPanel Web Hosting:
https://www.regionalinternet.com |
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajack
The animosity toward gringo's is getting scary.
The average mex in baja now seem's to think it's his appointed duty to to seperate any gringo from his property, money, cars, real estate, whatever
any way he can!
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Could you explain who the average mex in baja is?
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
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Just about anyone you would come in contact with that involves money.
Use to be if You had it, they wanted it!
The attitude now is if you got it then it's their right to take it.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
Member Is Offline
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Then don't go...Please
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajack
In the last couple of years it has gotten worse and now since congress did'nt give em amnesty and a free ride north it's worse then ever. I see it
more every time I go down.
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Criminals target people who have things to steal. It's what successful criminals do.
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