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Dave
Elite Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lee
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Minnow
expect to be called STUPID, for doing it with no sympathy whatsoever from the authorities, or the people on this board.
What is boils down to with that kind of logic, is that it is your fault for going there, not the criminals. |
And unless/until they do, your options are limited. Weigh and accept the risk...or not. Just the way it is. Life ain't fair. |
I drive an RV, tow a car, and have surfboards on top. And I don't give a ****. Like Roberto, there's a time to be respectful, and a time to stand
up and say I've got nothing but time and willing to speak with the Judge, let's go.
I don't expect to have 2 cars and a dozen heavily armed men force me off the toll-road during the day. If you're not prepared to ''negotiate''
with law enforcement in Baja, you might want to learn in advance or go somewhere else.
Depending on my mood, I will consider mordida if I'm in the wrong, but a total shakedown won't happen. * them and let's go to the mat.
[Edited on 11-22-2007 by Hose A] |
I wasn't referring to mordida. What's happening now is light years from mordida. You people need to get the idea of this being
mordida out of your heads.
This is mugging, armed robbery, carjacking and rape.
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
Posts: 4994
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Location: San Diego, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajack
The only way it will ever stop or even slow down is if the US Government would put enough pressure on the Mexican Government and thats not gonna
happen. |
We should probably hope not. Nobody likes to be pressured and that is even more true between Mexico and the US. |
Mexico does not want to be "told" what to do by the USA. That's true for all of us really, especially head-strong Baja travelers
such as ourselves.
We need to have trust & confidence with the source if we're going to follow instructions - and the same goes for Mexico. And
well, they don't trust the USA. Plain and simple.
It will have to become important enough to the Mexican authorities (whether Federal, State, or Municipal) to put attention upon it. There needs to be
something that motivates them to take action.
Again, "energy goes where attention flows."
They won't want to do anything putting positive energy towards this - unless it's something they've decided themselves as high enough priority to put
attention to.
Usually it will all boil down to the allmighty $$$ - and a local economy suffering because people are avoiding the place simply because they
feel it's not safe - no matter what the true reality may be.
So to review - to be most effective, there needs to be something bringing this to their attention that motivates them to come up with a positive
solution/decision for themselves.
If presented as a negative problem that they're being "told" they have to "fix, or else" - well, that ain't gonna achieve good results.
And that's the bottom line, isn't it - a good/positive outcome?
Having said all that, it may take "seeding" local business people with the knowledge/thought that they are about to start getting hit in their wallets
very soon because of recent events - that is, if they aren't already considering just this fact.
That will lead them to the determination we already know for ourselves to be the eventual outcome... only they decided upon the actions to take
themselves.
Just my $.02 worth.
--
Doug
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
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Bajajack
Banned
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The problem is, we put up with it far too long and now it's biting us in the U Know where.
In the beginning I did'nt mind paying a little mordida now and then, heck I actually thought it was great idea, greasing a few palm's to cut all that
nasty red tape.
But times have changed, mordida is not what it used to be.
With the animosity being shown to any Greeengo encountering it now it's nothing more than outright robbery.
I do not believe it can be stopped but I do know it can be controlled, TJ is a prime example.
Remember when the Army took all the sidearms from the local cops and started watching them, or I should say looking for them as they all seemed to
dissapear when they were relieved of their weapons. Could it be they were fearing retaliation from the locals, nah.
But all good things come to an end, now that the armys gone and they now have their hunting priviledges restored it's probably twice as bad since they
have to work harder now to make up all that lost income and not to mention all that lose of face they had to endure, U know, that macheesemo thing!
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Roberto
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Doug, I understand where you're coming from, but, with all due respect, I'm not buying.
When people are being physically harmed and their lives put at risk because law enforcement is corrupt and not doing their job it becomes hard to
focus on anything else.
What I see is that the "authorities" are either corrupt themselves, or ineffective to the point of not having a reason to be where they are.
I would be interested in hearing what YOU think should be done. Are you ok with this level of lawlessness? Somehow, I doubt it. Then what point are
you making, exactly, in terms of tourists (and we're all tourists, with few exceptions) and how they should behave and/or protect themselves.
Beyond this, the trend of the Mexican government has been pretty clear with respect to foreginers. You have no rights, no say, can't own property, but
please come down and spend your money. And, we will feel free to support the illegal emigration of as many citizens as wish to go to prop up our
corrupt have/have not economy.
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Minnow
Banned
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I think I am with Bruce. The cartels are running the show. They could give a flying F about tourists or tourist dollars. It is the wild west, travel
at your own risk.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Bajajack
Banned
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Location: Arizona
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Maybe I'm missing something here, I always assumed that the Cartels and the Government were the same with the only difference being how the cut was
split, silly me.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajajack
Maybe I'm missing something here, I always assumed that the Cartels and the Government were the same with the only difference being how the cut was
split, silly me. |
No No...That just CAN'T be true 'cause the government denys it.
So....There you are.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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Registered: 11-7-2002
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I'm still planning on going this winter. I'll cross in either Tecate or Mexicali and head down Gonzaga way. I hope its safe enough for me and my kid.
We'll have a small quad and a bike, but they'll be covered inside our junky old van.
As for danger, I hope North Baja doesn't become our local Colombia where we have to arrange a flight to get around the bad guys. If it does get to
that level, the U.S. ought to just simply shut down the border to all overland travel. But I imagine that all this should blow over after awhile.
However, these bouts of scary happenings seem to be happening in shorter and shorter cycles. Of course all this nonsense would not be happening if the
U.S. didn't have prohibition against dope. It's like the 1920's down there.
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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Join the baja nomad chat, post your solution
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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Roberto
Banned
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fdt
Join the baja nomad chat, post your solution |
Sounds productive - count me in.
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Minnow
Banned
Posts: 1110
Registered: 8-30-2002
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At least we have Ferna working on a positive note. I just hate the thought of sending him into the fray with our message.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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gnukid
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Action is driven by money. People do what makes money. If police made money doing good work they would do good work, but they don't get paid to do
good work they get paid only when they participate in theft.
They sell the stolen goods for money, they get bribed by the crooks to sell the goods, then when bad is caught they bribe the cops to not put them
away, then they go back and take the goods back and sell them back to the victim and ask to be paid to arrest the guy, the guy goes to jail for 24
hours and then pays to get out. Its a pathetic, sad circle of injustice.
Every commandant gets paid a share, every licensio gets paid, they all want a share to look the other way. In fact regular police business is not
their business.
No matter how well intentioned leaders of government and commerce may be, if they can't change this basic fact, then there is no money to pay for
crime prevention, persecution, deterrents, punishment etc... Raise the salaries of police and make it worthwhile to do their work.
A policeman's wage ranges from about $600-1000/month or $20-35/day plus other benefits. Its not enough to raise their families.
Successful community solutions involve making private communities which have proven to be the only solution in mexico and in some regions such as
Monterey are the norm, private paid for security, taking defense in your hands and basically stand up to bad people with your own will vigilance or
that of your paid for enforcer.
Each one of us must take it upon ourselves to beat up a bad guy when you catch one, do not report it, do not let them go, just make it hurt, break
their fingers, or even better kill them and leave them right where they committed the crime. Vigilance sends a clear message and its the only message
understood by the meth rats-fear of losing their fingers or dying. Thats the only solution, not unlike any other place in the world.
[Edited on 11-22-2007 by gnukid]
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gnukid
A policeman's wage ranges from about $600-1000/month or $20-35/day plus other benefits. |
Yeah...."other benefits." That's the problem from our perspective. Gathering in all those other benefits is more than a pattern of bad behavior.
It's part of the culture of law enforcement in Mexico. Been around since day one and won't easily go away. The police are shooting their own goose
by demanding too much. They run their scam just like many owners in mexico run their businesses. They demand too much for a product and don't
comprehend the benefit of high volume, low cost sales. An active cop could receive good "benefits" from pocket change but greed has taken over.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by grover
If we were to temporarily interrupt their cash flow, there might be a good chance of enforcing further discipline within the ranks in regards
to preying on tourists. |
You mean....gasp......they might have to fall back on their countless reserves? That, for sure would be the beginning of the end. Why, I'd be
willing to bet they couldn't last for more than a thousand years or so.
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Paladin
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Registered: 3-25-2006
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******Each one of us must take it upon ourselves to beat up a bad guy when you catch one, do not report it, do not let them go, just make it hurt,
break their fingers, or even better kill them and leave them right where they committed the crime. Vigilance sends a clear message and its the only
message understood by the meth rats-fear of losing their fingers or dying. Thats the only solution, not unlike any other place in the world. ********
Finally a real life solution...the good old vigalantee(sp?) system...in little towns this would work.....now if we all all could only have
guns....still I guess making them eat a flare would work.
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motoged
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6481
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Location: Kamloops, BC
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Mood: Gettin' Better
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| Quote: | | still I guess making them eat a flare would work |
Nomads,
Up here in the Great White North, where bears and other varmints can be a pest, some folks carry "Bear Bangers", which can shoot either flares or a
small explosive device (shell) which explodes with a significant percussive force 2 seconds after being fired from the discreet fountain pen launcher.
http://www.irl.bc.ca/Safety%20+%20Clothing/flares-bear-.htm
These units are inexpensive and perform various functions for creative applications.
They are not a firearm and sure look like a pen in your shirt pocket....
Just another idea from a guy who gave up guns years ago....
[Edited on 11-22-2007 by BajaNomad]
Don't believe everything you think....
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
Posts: 4994
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Location: San Diego, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
...Crime is way up and job security is way down. Everyone in Rosarito is on edge as the new gov't takes control and people still don't know if they
have the job next week that they have today.
...Christmas is coming... |
This is entirely consistent with something else I posted on another thread just
now....
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=28119&pag...
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
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bajadock
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Still learning to listen/read others' experiences and advice. Brief discussion on crime topic at neighborhood dinner last night. 2 guests showed up
approx 20 minutes late due to thick traffic from last toll booth north of Ensenada all the way through downtown Ensenada. Looks like a big tourist
weekend in Ensenada to me. What, me worry? -A.E.N.
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
Posts: 4994
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Location: San Diego, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Roberto
When people are being physically harmed and their lives put at risk because law enforcement is corrupt and not doing their job it becomes hard to
focus on anything else. |
It's hard to focus on anything else if you're the one in the middle of the situation
and fearing for your life - or the safety of your family.
For those not immediately at risk, they need to take their energies to affect change - if that's the result they desire. Not flail in every which
direction.
| Quote: | | What I see is that the "authorities" are either corrupt themselves, or ineffective to the point of not having a reason to be where they are.
|
Nothing new here I hate to say. (a generalized statement, where there are always exceptions of course)
| Quote: | | I would be interested in hearing what YOU think should be done. Are you ok with this level of lawlessness? |
No, not okay with the lawlessness.
Action?: Just what I mentioned - create buzz through the business community whom the politicos must satisfy to remain in their
position of power/authority.
How do you create this buzz - by having them visualize the results now of the devastation they will soon suffer (if not already suffering) in their
WALLETS from current events/security/etc.
I saw a copied post here already where the gentleman running Too Much Fun Promotions in Rosarito was taking action immediately in just this way.
He needs to be joined by others in the business community.
Again, this opinion is just my dos centavos and subject to change if other pertinent facts are brought forward - or come out.
My recollection is that there have almost always been problem time periods in the past - and that this is a continuing cyclical issue that arises.
Right now we're on the downside of the cycle. Maybe it IS because of the insecurity of jobs for some of the police/authorities and the changeover on
Dec 1 - combined with personal pressures within families because of the Christmas holiday as well.
And maybe, just maybe, we just have more information and news available to us in the new digital age and that this downcycle is just as bad as those
in the past - only it appears worse because we are finding out more about it today because of the better sources available to us online?
"Energy goes where attention flows..."
I don't pretend to have all the answers, but am sharing my thoughts on the subject.
Thanks,
--
Doug
[Edited on 11-22-2007 by BajaNomad]
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
Affordable Domain Name Registration/Management & cPanel Web Hosting:
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BajaNomad
Super Administrator
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| Quote: | | Then what point are you making, exactly, in terms of tourists (and we're all tourists, with few exceptions) and how they should behave and/or protect
themselves. |
I've always maintained the philosophy of don't make yourself a target. It's a broad statement, I know.
But right now it seems we need to be extra-vigilant in our decisions - and know the risk(s).
If you do choose to go, avoid standing out and making yourself a target:
- watch the amount of cash you're carrying.
- put the jewelry and watches away
(etc)
I'm a huge proponent of trying to "blend in" as much as possible.
Pizza insurance - notice that so often the people being targeted were driving expensive vehicles - and that's what was ultimately taken from them.
Obviously what the crimnals were targeting.
It's been noted to me that ex-pats know this, but also add it's helpful to have local, not foreign plates on the vehicle as well.
The "senior" officer of customs noted on the radio that there were 8 to 9 vehicles taken a day from tourists in Tijuana.
Should the tourist "have to" do these things or be worried about such issues, no, of course not - but we're talking about reality, safety, etc, and
these things are true for travelers in many parts of the world, including Mexico. Apparently more so than ever right now.
There are no guarantees, but if you're going to visit now you may want to place more attention on - and better manage - the risks so as to minimize
them as much as possible.
--
Doug
[Edited on 11-22-2007 by BajaNomad]
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
Affordable Domain Name Registration/Management & cPanel Web Hosting:
https://www.regionalinternet.com |
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