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Pescador
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3587
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Baja California Sur
Member Is Offline
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Memo, I think you have missed the point entirely. It is not about Mexico haters versus Mexico lovers. It seems to be more an issue of whether or not
we should be changing the "way things are" or "letting things be".
You say," Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights". I am not really sure what you refer to here as the
citizens of Mexico have the right to vote and rights guaranteed by their constitution. Are they the same as the United States? No, but this is not
the United States.
Next, " police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each residence, mail service and good education?" This infastructure is a very expensive
proposition and in the United States we work until July just to pay our share of the cost of these services. Should we wish that type of a tax burden
on our southern neighbors so that they have the same degree of infastructure as we have? Same thing with trash disposal and modern sewers which can
handle things like toilet paper and feminine products in their systems.
And then you say, "I believe most Americanos are simply bored with the failure of Mexico to live up to it's potential. We are tired of the excuses,
i.e, "its their culture, learn to love it" and "if you don't like it, don't visit" etc.
I find it refreshing that the infastructure is limited in Mexico because I feel like I have a clearer idea of what those services cost. An example is
when I go to a restaurant in the United States, I not only have to pay my portion of the building, management, workers, but am also funding
healthcare, retirement, workers compensation, sick leave, etc, etc, whereas in Mexico I can have a nice meal that is a comfortable level above the
cost of the raw materials. I can even have a cold beer for around $1.50 which is certainly better than the $5.00 at an American Restaurant for the
same item.
Finally, I think it is an important issue that we are careful to remind ourselves that we are visitors to a foreign country and that when we are
asked for our input and knowledge that we share freely, but when we rudely insist on compliance with our inappropriate sense of meddling because we
think we may have a better way, we are doing just that, meddling.
It sounds like you have gotten to the point where the negatives outweigh the positives and that is fine on a personal basis. That is the essence of
how personal decisions are made and you are to be congratulated on the fact that you have come to a decision about your own personal tolerances. But
please do not expect that those whose paradigms do not match your own will come to the same decisions.
I think that when Mexico wants and needs to change their system they will do exactly that, with or without us.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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I wouldn't change a thing about Baja. It's changing tho, wish it wasn't, but it
is. So is the rest of the world.
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rpleger
Super Nomad
Posts: 1087
Registered: 3-12-2005
Location: H. Mulegé, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: Was good.
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RIGHT ON Pescador ... I wish I could express myself like you can...Right on
Richard on the Hill
*ABROAD*, adj. At war with savages and idiots. To be a Frenchman abroad is to
be miserable; to be an American abroad is to make others miserable.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Enlarged Devil\'s Dictionary_
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Skeet/Loreto
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4709
Registered: 9-2-2003
Member Is Offline
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Very well Put.
Thanks for the very Positive words.
Skeet
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by memo
Why, after all, can't the Mexicans pull it together and provide basic human rights, police protection, drinking water and gas piped to each
residence, mail service and good education? Why can't the sewers accept toilet paper? |
I'm not getting into this battle, but just for a little perspective...
I live (principally at this point) in Stinson Beach California. The nearest sheriff's substation is 40 minutes away, we have no natural gas...propane
is delivered by truck, unless they forget, we get no home delivery of mail...need to go to the post office to pick it up, the California educational
system is pretty awful...we don't have sewers, we have on site septic systems, and about the cheapest house you can find here is a million dollars,
and they head uphill to about 7 million at the moment.
Just for information purpose...Mexican sewers and sewers anywhere, as well as septic systems can handle toilet paper, it is the plumbing in the house
to the system that is the problem...it can be fixed.
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memo
Banned
Posts: 40
Registered: 6-23-2008
Member Is Offline
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To Pescador, One of the "rights" I am talking about is the right to a fair and speedy trial. A Mexican aquaintance of mine was wrongly accused of a
crime and spent three months in jail, without possibility of bail, before it was determined he was in fact innocent of all charges. It was a
devastating experience and changed his life forever. It is the Mexican system of "justice". He needed to prove he was innocent, his accuser, to put
him behind bars, did not need to prove anything. If you can accept that as a fair system then God help you if you are ever falsely accused of
anything while in Mexico. As for voting rights in Mexico, who cares? You are actually beginning to "bore me again" with the same old tired arguments
I first referred to.
PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by memo
To Pescador, One of the "rights" I am talking about is the right to a fair and speedy trial. A Mexican aquaintance of mine was wrongly accused of a
crime and spent three months in jail, without possibility of bail, before it was determined he was in fact innocent of all charges. It was a
devastating experience and changed his life forever. It is the Mexican system of "justice". He needed to prove he was innocent, his accuser, to put
him behind bars, did not need to prove anything. If you can accept that as a fair system then God help you if you are ever falsely accused of
anything while in Mexico. As for voting rights in Mexico, who cares? You are actually beginning to "bore me again" with the same old tired arguments
I first referred to.
PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope. |
Given the emphasis on infrastructure in your initial post, it would be hard to tell that what you were talking about was the Mexican judicial system,
which is currently under reform.
You really must not know the people of Stinson Beach to call them snobs, and since you don't know us, resorting to name calling doesn't leave me with
much of a good impression of you.
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memo
Banned
Posts: 40
Registered: 6-23-2008
Member Is Offline
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Elizabeth, I know a bit about Stinson Beach. When I lived and went to school in San Francisco we would drive up there because it is a beautiful
beach. Usually we would stop in Muir Woods, though, to commune with nature. When I say "snobs" I refer to the fact that, as much as you would
suggest on this forum that you are roughing it, i.e,. propane, septic, etc., you failed to mention that in a few minutes drive you can take lunch in
Sausalito or in a few more minutes be seated for tea and cookies at the Mark Hopkins. All the while, mind you, enjoying the knowledge that you won't
spend more then ten minutes in custody if falsely accused of a crime. Knowing you can post bail, in any amount, thanks to the bail lenders, aka
bailbondsmen, located conveniently near every jailhouse in the US. My friend waited three months and underwent unspeakable hell in jail until the
magistratres in Ensenada decided it was time to hear his case. I'd like to hear a serious response from you on this seminal issue, rather than more
talk about Mexico bashing, etc.
Here, by the way, is why I call them "snobs":
http://www.city-data.com/city/Stinson-Beach-California.html
You say the nearest Sheriff is 40 minutes away, but fail to point out that San Francisco is a big 17 miles away. Stinson Beach: 94% caucasion, median
income 100k, median home price 500k (sorry, your house is worth about half of what you claim) you connect the dots, you pick up the pieces.
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]
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BMG
Super Nomad
Posts: 1776
Registered: 6-10-2007
Location: La Paz / Bahia Asunci�n / Away from home
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by memo
PS: I'd like to see how the snobs in Stinson Beach would take to three months in a Mexican jail without hope. |
What does a Stinson Beach resident (snob or not) have to do with your friend's jailing and why would you want to see them jailed?
I think the world is run by C- students.
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
Member Is Offline
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BajaShelly
Banned
Posts: 1
Registered: 7-21-2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Member Is Offline
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As a woman that watches this website for information prior to my trips into Mexico. I find it interesting that there is such a nasty response to
anyone who talks about the problems in Baja. Baja can be dirty and even dangerous but pointing that out should not be an invitation for abuse. Mexico
was more fun years ago before this silly drug problem reared its head but it has its problems just like my country does.I want to know any and all
information because it might be what makes me change my travel plans. Its not easy to travel as women these days anyways.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Bajajack
Banned
Posts: 370
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Arizona
Member Is Offline
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It's like talking to a wall.
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fulano
Banned
Posts: 496
Registered: 3-31-2008
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
I find it refreshing that the infastructure is limited in Mexico because I feel like I have a clearer idea of what those services cost. An example is
when I go to a restaurant in the United States, I not only have to pay my portion of the building, management, workers, but am also funding
healthcare, retirement, workers compensation, sick leave, etc, etc, whereas in Mexico I can have a nice meal that is a comfortable level above the
cost of the raw materials. |
I could write a book about what you do not know about Mexico. Each and every one of those items that you think Mexican restaurants don't pay? Well
guess what, Pesacador. They are ALL there in the Mexican tax system. There is even more. The restaurant owner is required by law to pay out a bonus of
10% of his tax profits to his employees.
You must be talking about those street carts that are exempt from almost everything because they have no employees, just the owner. They are also
exempt from -- or ignore -- the health codes that restaurants have to follow. The next time you are trying to figure out whether to put your head or
your butt over the toilet because you have the "trots", ask yourself something. Where was that guy getting the hot water to clean his utensils? Did
you see a water pipe running into that cart?
You are happy with a limited infrastructure because you live in Mexico on a limited income and want to make sure there is a never-ending supply of
brown-skinned mestizos to fix you cheap tacos and fetch your Pacifico.
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ELINVESTIG8R
Select Nomad
Posts: 15882
Registered: 11-20-2007
Location: Southern California
Member Is Offline
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WILL THE TROUBLEMAKERS PLEASE JUMP IN AND COMMIT SUICIDE!
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DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by memo
Here's a bumper sticker idea for Shari and her friends. Unfortunately it refects the Mexican governments entire social policy. And, as we all know,
many of the best and brightest have taken the advice and left Mexico. The brain drain will continue forever, aided by the enablers, like Shari, who
embrace the love it or leave it philosophy. I humbly suggest the real Mexico lovers are those with the guts to remain and seek positive change.
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I will not, and don't pretend to speak for others, but for me, the constant bashing of everything Mexican and Mexico in general is tiresome, but it is
not an enabling Love it or Leave it attitude, just an attitude of accept it in an over all way, or leave it.
Some Mexicans I know want change, and others do not. Even here in this small village there is quite a bit of controversy over what is happening. It
is changing quickly and everyone knows that when the road is complete, change is apt to accelerate.
Some of the locals really look forward to the change and possible financial rewards, others don't want it at all. IMHO, it really is a matter of
acceptance and tolerance levels, and yes, if one cannot accept it, than they should leave, leave if they are fatigued. We have left other countries
with cultural fatigue.
Just like a person, a country changes when it desires change, and not before.
Besides, I just shake my head with your reference to Human Rights Abuses, with all that has been happening in the US.
So what good does it do to personally attack Shari and others who are suffering fatigue from the Mexico bashing? Or, why attack alll the residents
of a California beach town?
If you are fatigued, that is understandable, there are lots of places to visit and live.
Good Luck
Diane
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vandenberg
Elite Nomad
Posts: 5118
Registered: 6-21-2005
Location: Nopolo
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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| Quote: |
You are happy with a limited infrastructure because you live in Mexico on a limited income and want to make sure there is a never-ending supply of
brown-skinned mestizos to fix you cheap tacos and fetch your Pacifico. |
Pescador,
Did you realize that this guy has you pegged 
On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano/a.
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by vandenberg]
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by vandenberg]
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by memo
Elizabeth, I know a bit about Stinson Beach. When I lived and went to school in San Francisco we would drive up there because it is a beautiful
beach. Usually we would stop in Muir Woods, though, to commune with nature. When I say "snobs" I refer to the fact that, as much as you would
suggest on this forum that you are roughing it, i.e,. propane, septic, etc., you failed to mention that in a few minutes drive you can take lunch in
Sausalito or in a few more minutes be seated for tea and cookies at the Mark Hopkins. All the while, mind you, enjoying the knowledge that you won't
spend more then ten minutes in custody if falsely accused of a crime. Knowing you can post bail, in any amount, thanks to the bail lenders, aka
bailbondsmen, located conveniently near every jailhouse in the US. My friend waited three months and underwent unspeakable hell in jail until the
magistratres in Ensenada decided it was time to hear his case. I'd like to hear a serious response from you on this seminal issue, rather than more
talk about Mexico bashing, etc.
Here, by the way, is why I call them "snobs":
http://www.city-data.com/city/Stinson-Beach-California.html
You say the nearest Sheriff is 40 minutes away, but fail to point out that San Francisco is a big 17 miles away. Stinson Beach: 94% caucasion, median
income 100k, median home price 500k (sorry, your house is worth about half of what you claim) you connect the dots, you pick up the pieces.
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo]
[Edited on 7-21-2008 by memo] |
I know...I shouldn't respond to this outrageous nonsense...but, here I am. You are seriously understating distances here. San Francisco is 50
minutes to an hour away, and I drive fast. The road is very narrow and winding. Sausalito is a half hour. I say the sheriff because that's whose
jurisdiction this is. I never said anyone here was "roughing it". I was saying that your perceived failures in infrastructure are not necessarily
failures, and occur in a lot of places. And I never made any claim of what my house was worth! For that matter, you don't even know whether or not I
have one.
As to detention...no one here is out when accused of a crime (rightfully or wrongfully, which you wouldn't know until a plea or judgment by judge or
jury) in ten minutes. There are an awful lot of people sitting in the Marin County jail awaiting trial because they cannot afford bail...and some of
them sit there for far more than 3 months.
I understand that the Marin County Jail is a considerably nicer place to stay than pretty much any jail in Mexico, or a number of other countries.
I'm just saying that if you want to talk about the judicial system or infrastructure of Mexico, stop making absurd or misleading or outright incorrect
comparisons.
And, if you want to have a genuine discourse on any topic, stop the name calling.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Baja 4 ME
My goal was to live next to the Sea of Cortez.
It's still there.
Often (very often) we're the only people in the water.
As long as I hold together, things are OK.
No desire to be part of another culture. No desire to be part of my own.
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memo
Banned
Posts: 40
Registered: 6-23-2008
Member Is Offline
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Elizabeth
Talking to you is frustrating to say the least. You brought up Stinson Beach, I didn't. You compared it to Baja by pointing out the similarities,
ie., septic tanks, propane, etc. You said the lack of these infrastructure elements can be found in many places, including Mexico and Stinson Beach.
I am merely pointing out that in Mexico this lack of infrastructure is pervasive and not voluntary as it is in Stinson Beach. Wealthy, educated white
people move voluntarily to Stinson Beach to be away from the hub bub but yet not too far to easily get their hair and nails done in Sausalito. By the
way, Ross and Mill Valley are seven miles from SB and they aren't chopped liver. I lived in Mill Valley, next door to Ross, and these are exclusive
communities. So, quit trying to put words in my mouth and quit pretending Stinson is the sister city of anywhere in Mexico. By the way, can you
folks drink the water that comes from your kitchen tap?
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fulano
Banned
Posts: 496
Registered: 3-31-2008
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vandenberg
On second thought my vote for A*hole of the month now goes to Fulano |
You're too late. Capt. George already called for that vote last week. He lost 20-to1.
...and HE has not been heard from since.
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