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bajalou
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From the center for disease Control
The following are relative to Tobacco - the biggest killer of all--
CAUSES OF DEATH Deaths % compared to smoking
Alcohol-induced deaths 19,068 04.4%
Assault (homicide) 16,831 03.9%
Drug-induced deaths 18,443 04.3%
Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) disease 14,681 03.4%
Injury by firearms 28,839 06.7%
Motor Vehicle Accidents 46,378 10.8%
TOTAL OF ALL ABOVE 144,258 33.5%
CDC's official estimate that "Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 430,000 deaths each year, or one in every five deaths.
So what "hard, addicting, health destroying ones" are you talking about?
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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k-rico
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Alcohol is nothing compared to meth and heroin. Most people that drink booze regularly don't become addicted and can control their consumption.
Everybody that uses hard drugs on a regular basis become addicted rather quickly and have a small chance of controlling it.
Comparing hard drugs with booze is comparing apples and oranges.
That's one of my beefs with this whole drug discourse. You need to address different chemicals differently. You can't just lump them all together when
addressing the problems they cause.
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Ken Bondy
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k-rico
Your approach (keep most drugs illegal) hasn't worked so far. Do you have any positive suggestions? Like something other than calling people who
think legalization is the right solution stupid?
[Edited on 11-20-2008 by Ken Bondy]
carpe diem!
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
At some point it MAY be the time for Mexico to turn a blind eye and let the drugs flow to the buyers to the north and leave the traffickers to their
business with the condition that the violence stops.
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If it weren't for U.S. money and pressure Mexico wouldn't care. And it's not problems with the border that's causing the violence. It's infighting
among the cartels. You'd think with all the billions in profits that they could come to some kind of agreement on how to split up the money. Go
figure.
Nothing would please me more than a peaceful, uninterrupted flow of drugs north. The more the better. Let 'em choke on the crap.
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Skipjack Joe
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As a parent hard drugs scare the hell out of me. I'm just wondering if any of you that favor legalizing drugs would have a different viewpoint of one
of yours was in a life-or-death struggle to overcome drugs. I wonder how, say, Carol O'Connor feels about drug legalization.
From NY Times:
Carroll O'Connor's Son Kills Himself at 33
March 30, 1995
Hugh O'Connor, an actor and the only son of the television star Carroll O'Connor, died of a gunshot wound at his home here on Tuesday. He was 33.
The police called the death a suicide and said they had found a note.
A crisis negotiator and members of a Police Department special weapons team found Mr. O'Connor's body after his father called the police to report
that Mr. O'Connor was despondent and had guns.
Carroll O'Connor said his son had been addicted to various drugs and substances for 16 years. The police today arrested a man Mr. O'Connor identified
as his son's dealer.
Hugh O'Connor played Deputy Lonnie Jamison in the television series "In the Heat of the Night," which stars his father. Earlier, he worked as an
assistant stage manager in New York.
In addition to his father, he is survived by his mother, Nancy O'Connor; his wife, Angela Clayton, and his son, Sean, 2
Would the suicide have been prevented if the drugs had been purchased legally?
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k-rico
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
k-rico
Your approach (keep most drugs illegal) hasn't worked so far. Do you have any positive suggestions? Like something other than calling people who
think legalization is the right solution stupid?
[Edited on 11-20-2008 by Ken Bondy] |
I'll say it for the third time. Perhaps the cops need to take the heat off of the cartels and live within a gray area, illegal but turn a blind eye,
sort of.
As far as legalization using the argument that more people die of booze and cigs, look at it this way.
More people die or get injured driving their car at 60 mph that people do who are driving at 120 mph. Do we legalize driving 120 mph? Of course not.
Well, hard drugs are much more dangerous that alcohol or tobacco. 20% or so of Californianss are smokers. If 20% were meth addicts, smoking would be
considered a trivial problem. And I believe if you legalized the stuff, there would be many, many more addicts.
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Ken Bondy
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k-rico
I'll say it for the second time. Do you have any positive suggestions"
carpe diem!
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Ken Bondy
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| Quote: |
Would the suicide have been prevented if the drugs had been purchased legally? |
Igor no-one, of course, could know that for sure. Maybe legalization would have eliminated the "forbidden fruit" aspect of illegal drugs. Maybe the
kid's problem would have been more visible to O'Connor if the drugs had been obtained legally. Maybe rehab efforts, which would go hand-in-hand with
legalization, could have helped.
I don't think legalization would provide any significant benefits to the users, with the possible exception of rehab. However legalization would
greatly benefit those who are robbed and killed as a result of all the illegal activities that accompany the illegal drug industry. Legalization
would have certainly helped the innocent people in Mexico who have been killed in the crossfire from the cartels.
carpe diem!
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
You can't legalize drugs, at least the hard, addicting, heath destroying ones, that would be stupid.
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You mean like alcohol? |
Calling people stupid is, well, stupid.
Do a little research and you will find that the rate of addiction in countries that have legalized drugs has not gone up .....
Those who have compulsive, addictive problems remains the same....
This conduct cannot be successfully legislated ....
It is the individual that is to blame for their abuse of any drug, be it cigarettes, alcohol, heroine, cocaine or mota.
So, k-rico, get off your judgemental high horse , you are part of the problem.
CaboRon
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BajaBad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
I'll say it for the third time. Perhaps the cops need to take the heat off of the cartels and live within a gray area, illegal but turn a blind eye,
sort of. |
Isn't that what most agree is the essence of the problem in the first place? Not only do Mexican cops & gov. officials turn a blind eye, (no 'sort
of' in the picture), they intentionally allow and participate in the criminal activity to profit along with the drug dealers & cartels... as can
occur in the U.S. of course as well, but not close to the corruption that is explicitly 'allowed' (no criminal prosecutions, the legal system as prone
to complicity as the cops & politicians) in Mexico.
I agree with Ken B. that it is a no-brainer that recreational drugs (small amounts of pot/cocaine...) should be legalized like alcohol & tabacco
to decrease the incentive & profit-making from illicit drug trade... though I too agree with K rico that 'hard drugs' (the 70 mph + poisons)
like meth/heroin, etc. should not be legalized due to the possibility of exending addictions to larger populations.
And the most important consideration of all for Mexico and the U.S. - say NO to Plan Mexico (billion plus in U.S. aid to aid in militarization &
'train Mexico's police force') which would only support the corruption, give more money to the KNOWN collaborating criminals - Mexican cops & gov.
officials.
And we'd have to say, U.S. officials as well or sanity would have already prevailed and that 'plan' would not be being promoted. Put the U.S.
taxpayer money to work helping U.S. forces who are working on our border issues, who we know are not perfect, but not as near corrupt as they have to
deal with daily on the other side.
BajaBad
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bajalou
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Alcohol is nothing compared to meth and heroin. Most people that drink booze regularly don't become addicted and can control their consumption.
Everybody that uses hard drugs on a regular basis become addicted rather quickly and have a small chance of controlling it.
Comparing hard drugs with booze is comparing apples and oranges.
That's one of my beefs with this whole drug discourse. You need to address different chemicals differently. You can't just lump them all together when
addressing the problems they cause. |
It would appear to me you don't have any first hand experience with addiction to alcohol or illegal drugs. Saying a drug you personally like is less
harmful than some other only shows your bias in this area. Your comparison of hard drugs? to alcohol is correct to some extent. I personally know
many addicts who found it MUCH more difficult to get off alcohol than heroin.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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fdt
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4059
Registered: 9-7-2003
Location: Tijuana, Baja California
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Mood: Yeah, what if it all goes right
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
I'll say it for the second time. Do you have any positive suggestions" |
I'm gona put in a couple of centavitos in here.
Legalize them all exept the frikin cristaleros, those are the adictive hijos de la that screw it all up IMHMO. Toothless mother hijos de la you know
what.
A well informed Baja California traveler is a smart Baja California traveler!
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Skipjack Joe
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I'm just asking questions, Ken. I really have no recommendations. Yes, the removal of drug traffic would put a big dent in the violence I am reading
on this website every day and that would be a big positive. I don't know what would happen if drugs were legalized. What's worse is that I feel like a
hypocrite because I smoked dope in college on a regular basis, and even later. For me, it was like water off a duck's back but for some of my friends
it's been a life long struggle (failed marriages, can't hold a job, stumbling through board room meetings, eventually turning to the bible).
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Ken Bondy
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Igor I don't claim to have many answers either, although legalization is the only thing that makes sense to me. Countries that have legalized most
"recreational" drugs, like Holland, don't seem to have any pervasive ill effects. Health, education, and crime statistics are all better than ours.
carpe diem!
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Skipjack Joe
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I thought about it some more and decided to look at it from a different perspective: how drugs are viewed in our school system.
The school my kids go to proudly proclaim to be drug free zones. Last week one of the students was caught smoking pot at the skateboard park and was
promptly expelled from the school. The following week cameras were mounted over that same park to help monitor the enforcement of the drug policy and
to identify anyone who breaks it. This was done to not only punish the offender but to let the student body understand the consequences of breaking
this rule. Our public school has zero tolerance for drugs and is very clear where it stands. And, most importantly, it has the full support of all the
parents.
The reason I bring this up is because it shows how unlikely it would be for americans to support a free drug policy that is suggested. If anything the
public here would support more stringent laws dealing with drugs.
The problems that our drug policy has created in mexico is very distant to the average american and does not compare to their feelings about drugs
here in our schools and neighborhoods.
I'm not being judgmental about the presence of drugs. I'm just expressing the mood of the people where I live because I think it reflects the view of
most americans.
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Sharksbaja
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My God Joe they supported Bush then Palin and knew nothing of her abilities. You give people to much credit. 
If you legalize drugs you change the playing field. Education with bonafide information at the correct age can help wonders.
Pot-smokers don't threaten any facet of our society in a negative way other than they simply break the antiquainted laws.
Dangerous drugs like crank and pharmaceuticals can addict people. Like cigs or booze it's not wise to get "hooked". But it happens and will never
end. Some other pleasure center thang will come along and generate a new breed repeat repeat.
As far as fighting violence with violence, Martyman I was responding to the issue of being invaded and killed. I support anyones' right to defend
life and property. If you think it's not a deterent then I'd have to disagree.
When it comes to defending life I vote for me/us to win. That might entail the use of a weapon.
I doubt you'll see me in a black SUV hunting down criminals.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ken Bondy
k-rico
Your approach (keep most drugs illegal) hasn't worked so far. Do you have any positive suggestions? Like something other than calling people who
think legalization is the right solution stupid?
[Edited on 11-20-2008 by Ken Bondy] |
I apologize if I offended you. When I said legalizing drugs would be stupid I did not mean to say the people who advocate legalization are stupid, but
I understand how you may think that. Using the word stupid, was stupid on my part. I should have said legalization is a bad idea because I think it
would lead to more addicts. There are people who don't agree with that idea also.
One poster cited the high number of people who die from smoking compared to other drugs. That logic completely ignores the fact that a huge number of
people smoke, and do so their entire adult lives, compared to how many use the other drugs.
I'm in the middle ground, legalizing dangerous but pleasureable drugs is at one end, fighting a war, expending much resources with collateral damage,
to eliminate them is at the other. I would do neither. I have no problem dealing with ambiguity.
I'd like to know what legalizing drugs means? How would that work? I'm feeling a bit sluggish this morning, could I go to the 7-11 and buy some
crystal to get me going? Then, perhaps some heroin tonight to bring me down?
[Edited on 11-21-2008 by k-rico]
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k-rico
Super Nomad
Posts: 2079
Registered: 7-10-2008
Location: Playas de Tijuana
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
I'll say it for the third time. Perhaps the cops need to take the heat off of the cartels and live within a gray area, illegal but turn a blind eye,
sort of. |
Isn't that what most agree is the essence of the problem in the first place? Not only do Mexican cops & gov. officials turn a blind eye, (no 'sort
of' in the picture), they intentionally allow and participate in the criminal activity to profit along with the drug dealers & cartels... as can
occur in the U.S. of course as well, but not close to the corruption that is explicitly 'allowed' (no criminal prosecutions, the legal system as prone
to complicity as the cops & politicians) in Mexico.
I agree with Ken B. that it is a no-brainer that recreational drugs (small amounts of pot/cocaine...) should be legalized like alcohol & tabacco
to decrease the incentive & profit-making from illicit drug trade... though I too agree with K rico that 'hard drugs' (the 70 mph + poisons)
like meth/heroin, etc. should not be legalized due to the possibility of exending addictions to larger populations.
And the most important consideration of all for Mexico and the U.S. - say NO to Plan Mexico (billion plus in U.S. aid to aid in militarization &
'train Mexico's police force') which would only support the corruption, give more money to the KNOWN collaborating criminals - Mexican cops & gov.
officials.
And we'd have to say, U.S. officials as well or sanity would have already prevailed and that 'plan' would not be being promoted. Put the U.S.
taxpayer money to work helping U.S. forces who are working on our border issues, who we know are not perfect, but not as near corrupt as they have to
deal with daily on the other side.
BajaBad |
Yes I am advocating, for the purpose of debate, returning to the way it was, if in fact I am correct that back then the drug trade harmed fewer
people, and I mean to include all the business owners in TJ and Rosarito that are now going broke, in addition to the violence.
This is a Mexican standoff.
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BajaBad
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Registered: 1-30-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by k-rico
Yes I am advocating, for the purpose of debate, returning to the way it was, if in fact I am correct that back then the drug trade harmed fewer
people, and I mean to include all the business owners in TJ and Rosarito that are now going broke, in addition to the violence.
This is a Mexican standoff. |
I completely agree with you... if only it were possible. Mexico came so close - at a time before the horrors of now - to legalizing small amounts of
drugs for personal use, so as to focus all efforts on the cartels... and the U.S. persuaded Fox to not sign the bill. Sad. It could have been the
end of much of what is driving the hell being experienced today.
Not "all" - but much... if only we could go back to pre-Calderon sending tons of military & more corrupt officers to fix the problem, leading to
what we have today.
My two cents - NOT trying to offend anyone! 
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Skipjack Joe
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As far as I can see from where this thread is going, we're back to square one. The idea of legalizing recreational drugs but staying the course on
hard drugs will not make any difference to the violence experienced in baja these days ( the subject of this thread). American gangland violence
stopped with the repeal of prohibition because ALL booze was legalized, not just that which contained less than 80% alcohol.
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