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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paula
As long as the ranch population lives on up there the goats will not destroy the sierra. As Elizabeth says, the herds are not large, and for 200
years or so the people, livestock, and flora have co-existed in a healthy and balanced situation. But take away the goats, and the life that is lived
there now will cease to be. Generations of ranchers have worked to build tillable soil where once there was none in order to grow fruit trees and
vegetable gardens. The women grow beautiful colorful flowers on the ranches, and herbs for teas cooking, and remedies. They care for the land
because their lives literally depend on it.
In the winters of 2007 and 2008, the desert along the road up was green, blooming and just plain amazing. And if you ride back in beyond the end of
the road, from ranch to ranch, you will find that it seems to go on forever. It is clean. There is no garbage, and the air is clear, even on a windy
day. In years when the rainfall is scarce the colors fade, and the plants look small and dry, but they miraculously spring back to life when water
comes. There aren't many places like the Sierra de San Francisco, and the unique ranch culture is a large part of what makes it special.
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baron
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Goat clear-cut. Clear cutting has destructive long term results. It's that simple Ron.
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Paula
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Bajarunner, could you give more specifics on the formula for your calculation?
Amy, some management would no doubt be beneficial, and abandoned herds are certainly a problem. The village of San Francisco is in sad shape, as are
the road-accessible ranches, but these cover a tiny area. The back country is another thing entirely. It could be argued that a group of people
living as these ranchers do on the earth in this time is a benefit to all mankind. To dismiss their society as merely quaint does not do them
justice. As Don Jorge says, it is not a growing culture, the ranch population is shrinking.
And we really can't go back to a time before goats were brought over by the padres and the soldiers. It may be that the dessert has suffered most
from the flocks of people who have been coming to this remote place for just the past 60 or 70 years in search of unfenced land. Removing the
ranchers and the livestock may not be that difficult. But try and stop the numbers of tourists with their motorcycles, ATVs and big pick-ups-- that
won't be easy.
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thebajarunner
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The calculation was seventh grade simple,
we drove five or six miles past the ranch and still saw the goats.
pi, r squared makes 5.5 miles a total of 95 square miles
6 miles is 113 sq miles.
As to the rest, I guess it is pretty simple,
run the goats, toast the flora.
Remember how the Navy went in and cleared all the goats from Catalina Island?
Why?
Because they were destroying the native flora.
But hey, 100 square miles here
100 square miles there...
it is sort of like the Dems budget,
a few billion here
a few billion there
who's counting....????
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Mexitron
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Of course there are negative effects but we've got to eat too. Would you have stopped the million strong herds of buffalo years ago because of the
devastating effect they had on the prairie...ultimately, the buffalo's stampeding ended up tilling the earth (along with prairie dogs and other
critters) and made the grasslands stronger.
On a drive last month out onto the open prairie the grasses were still dry from the modest drought in North Texas--only one area was green--a goat
ranch! And no, they don't irrigate...its just the tilling with their hooves and all the "compost" from the goats that makes the soil better and more
able to hang on to water, so who's to say what's right. There's a balance to all this--I don't want to see mass destruction from intensive
overgrazing either (like the Channel Islands where the goats/sheep/pigs were neither harvested nor had any natural predators).
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Cypress
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Mexitron, Goats prefer to browse leaves,stems, etc. Grass is not their food of choice.
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wilderone
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"I have no doubt the flora and fauna will survive and also believe the damage caused by the goats is superficial and maybe beneficial in the long
term. We don't know as goats are a relatively new venture."
They won't survive. It's not superficial and it's definitely not beneficial in the long term. What would possibly support such a theory? Maybe YOU
don't know about the damage that this realtively "new venture" will cause, but historically, there is plenty of evidence. I also see the small herd
at Mission San Borja. They take them out every night - different places because they strip the vegetation off the hills and valleys. When I was in
the Sierra SF, I saw the thick algae scum in the few fresh water ponds that were there - the goats pollute the streams as well. Indigenous flower
and plant species? How many will become extinct because they won't be around long enough to flower, seed, regenerate? I fought the cattle grazing in
Lake Tahoe valleys - and the goats are just as bad. The ranchers with goat herds can pen them and feed them instead of letting them graze. Of course
this will not happen because Baja Californios are too far removed from environmental causes to want to save their land, and there is no dynamic to
spur change. Baja CA may have some wide open spaces, but, as you all know, it is a fragile ecosystem - all intertwined - and all threatened.
Mining, goats, cattle, fishing, bulldozing, roads, waste, development - an ecosystem at risk of being irreparably harmed, to the detriment of its
citizens and tourists and future generations.
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bajalou
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| Quote: | Originally posted by thebajarunner
The calculation was seventh grade simple,
we drove five or six miles past the ranch and still saw the goats.
pi, r squared makes 5.5 miles a total of 95 square miles
6 miles is 113 sq miles.
A
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My calculator says pr,r squared at 6 miles is 28.27 sq miles.
It's 113 if you are squaring the diameter rather than the radius. Quite a difference it the totals.
AT 5.5 miles (2.75 mile radius) it's 23.76 sq miles.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Skipjack Joe
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"six miles past the ranch" means 6 miles from the ranch to the last of the goats. That's radius - not diameter.
3.14 X 6 X 6 = ?
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bajalou
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You're saying that the goats started 6 miles before the ranch and continued 6 miles beyond. If that's the case, then the 6 x 6 is correct. I didn't
get that from the first post.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Pompano
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Scenario:
The ranch sits at the end of a box canyon.
The goats extend 6 miles beyond.
How wide is the canyon for 6 miles?
See where this is going?
I do what the voices in my tackle box tell me.
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thebajarunner
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That is the way I was taught
| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
"six miles past the ranch" means 6 miles from the ranch to the last of the goats. That's radius - not diameter.
3.14 X 6 X 6 = ? |
I think "r" = radius
radius would be distance from the ranch to the end of travel
My answer to the way you spelled it out = 113.14 sq. mi.
If we started six miles before the ranch and went six past would that not = "d" (diameter)??
and, I sort of remember that you us pi times d for circumfrence, but it has been a really long time.
I am sticking with my original math....
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LaTijereta
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"Guys they are talking about us"
Democracy is like two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin (1759)
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mtgoat666
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this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us
goats how much we can and cannot eat in 
until you prove you have a low-carbon footprint and live a sustainable lifestyle, you should not tell us goats what we can and cannot do 
yes we can!
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vgabndo
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Well "runner" you had me on your side until you decided to blame the US economy on progressives alone. No deal! Part of our OWN problems with the
environment result from huge cattle operations being allowed to let their hooved locusts graze on the public's land for virtually nothing. I have
pointed out to many a seat mate on a transcontinental flight that you can see a barbed wire fence from 40,000 feet. One side is a natural landscape,
the other side is a barren desert sacrificed to the burger king. Do I have an answer? Only that I eat very little red meat.
Undoubtedly, there are people who cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug. Sam Harris
"The situation is far too dire for pessimism."
Bill Kauth
Carl Sagan said, "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
PEACE, LOVE AND FISH TACOS
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Mexitron
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
Mexitron, Goats prefer to browse leaves,stems, etc. Grass is not their food of choice. |
Prefer seems to be the important distinction--if goats are fenced in with nothing else to browse they'll forage on the grass...
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wilderone
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"this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us
goats how much we can and cannot eat in"
NONSENSE. The Baja CA peninsula is a finite region, with little water, and a fragile ecosystem. Being a Baja CA citizen with no car is certainly not
a license to destroy the environment. There is a sustainable way to raise goats and there is a progressively destructive way which will bite you in
the ass in the long run. Why can't people become educated and raise goats AND learn to protect your immediate environment for their OWN benefit and
the benefit of future generations? There is an organization called Floresta which educates indigenous Mexicans and others in the world about new
agricultural methods which are sustainable. Learning and education and change is constantly being undertaken - and there is no reason why that can't
happen in Baja CA. They just need to learn a better way. This better way will serve THEM. It's not a restriction - it's simply a different way. Do
some homework and learn why regions in Africa are so poor. It's because they've used up their natural resources. Now these poor Africans look to the
rest of the world to teach them, feed them, help them. Does it always take dire circumstances and catastrophe to nudge change and education? It's
not like the answers are some secret mystery. I was traveling in the highlands of Chiapas and drove through a small, very poor settlement. There was
a crude sign posted near the stream running nearby, which instructed not to go potty or dump in the stream. One would think that this would be a
basic understanding for them by now, for a population who is so dependent on the stream for everything in their life. But no - that sign served as
the education for those who STILL just don't get it. At least the current generation will finally learn not to pollute their water source. So you
see, once the damaging methods are understood, change can begin, and the future looks brighter for everything concerned - regardless of how or by whom
the message is brought.
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motoged
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
this goat says that people who drive big fuel-hog trucks and RVs or are US citizens (largest per capity energy users in world) should not tell us
goats how much we can and cannot eat ...
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When I first read the heading on this thread, these were the goats that first came to my mind 
Goats and insects will probably survive WAY longer than any of us.
Don't believe everything you think....
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