| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6 |
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
David,
Thank you for all your trip reports and photos. It is clear that your many years of exploration and your enthusiasm for sharing, reveals a genuine
love for Baja. I also like the way you have clearly stated your thoughts and further explained them in this string.
Safarigirl,
Thank you for coming back and for your love and concern for Baja and the Lagoon de San Ignacio....and of course, the whales. Don't be sorry. You have
generated some good dialog here. Stay in touch here and give us reports as to what you have found.
[Edited on 8-28-2007 by toneart]
|
|
|
woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Everchangin'
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by safarigirl
I am sorry I started this post. It was not my intention to get embroiled in an environmental discussion, nor do I have the time or inclination to
educate anyone about the Lagoon right now.
Rather, I have spent many, many years in remote places in Baja and have also lived there. The past couple years I have not been able to do so, and
find that the peninsula is very important to me, so much so that I want to spend my time and energy protecting what I so deeply care about. My simple
question was in hopes that someone who has spent time there in the past year or two, and is familiar with the issues concerning the Lagoon, may have a
suggestion on how best I might now do that.
Although the issues are complex, below is something Serge Dedina from Wildcoast says about this last natural place on earth where the grey whales
(longest migration of any mammal on the planet) go to breed, rasie their young, and actually seek interaction with humans - one of the very same
places that ran red with their blood 100 yrs. ago when whales were slaughtered there:
" this wetland complex is a global treasure and one of the world’s most biologically significant coastal sites.In 2000, thanks to national and
international pressure, the Mexican government cancelled an industrial salt production project, which would have devastated Laguna San Ignacio. But
this victory did not mean permanent protection of Laguna San Ignacio: a new salt production federal concession, mega-resorts, and land speculation
threaten to dramatically alter the pristine lagoon, and hundreds of square miles of wetlands and mangroves." |
"i wanna do something! please tell me what to do!" 
i don't think anyone wants your time or inclination for an educational expose' on the lagoon either. maybe you should just go and report back to
everyone how your experience changed the lagoon for the better!
what happened? grateful dead not touring?
|
|
|
Crusoe
Senior Nomad
Posts: 731
Registered: 10-14-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
Safarigirl.....Thank you for your post and your replys.....You Go Girl!!!! ...I too have spent over 40 years exploring lots of Baja....by sea and by
land.And I too have spent quite sometime around San Ignacio Lagoon observing whales and also many small boat sailing trips up and down the Pacific
Coast and many trips up all the way north and south obse rving sealife and whales in the Sea of Cortez. The highlight for us, as is for many,
is seeing all the whale activity, along with all the seabirds and sea life. It gives us such a beautiful sense of how important it is to preserve what
is left, and to rebuild what has vanished. You will find the right organization. Greenpeace in Mexico is doing some great things now.I do not have all
the statistical facts of how fast some areas are deterorating, but from a long time of close observation it seems as if just the last 15 years or
so,things are really changing fast.Every person can make a difference. I think that is what the whales are trying to tell us when they come close to
us. We just need to learn.... how to listen. ++C++
|
|
|
woody with a view
PITA Nomad
Posts: 15939
Registered: 11-8-2004
Location: Looking at the Coronado Islands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Everchangin'
|
|
perhaps....
|
|
|
Bajamatic
Senior Nomad
Posts: 571
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.
|
Question DK: Would that still be your wish if you could no longer operate any sort of vehicle on those roads? I know the intent of your post, so I'm
not trying to stir up dirt here (I share the same selfish dream) but thought it posed a curious question.
yuletide
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64739
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajamatic
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.
|
Question DK: Would that still be your wish if you could no longer operate any sort of vehicle on those roads? I know the intent of your post, so I'm
not trying to stir up dirt here (I share the same selfish dream) but thought it posed a curious question. |
No, not at all... Operating motor vehicles (4WD or buggy) is how we adventure loving people enjoy Baja... Bad dirt roads makes Baja available for
ANYONE to enjoy, provided they show some effort to get there by having a 4X4 or other off road vehicle... it will be MORE appreciated and more
enjoyed!
You see, God gave us Baja to enjoy provided we show some effort to get there... The bad roads make us worthy of Baja. 
Good roads (the work of the devil) allow everyone to get there... the good, the bad, and the ugly!
With good roads, and less effort or investment to get to the beautiful places... they are not appreciated the same way or as much as it was before.
People who don't appeciate a place are more likely to destroy it or tarnish it... grafitti, sea walls, private property signs, resort hotels, trash,
etc. You see, the devil's work! 
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18100
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajamatic
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.
|
Question DK: Would that still be your wish if you could no longer operate any sort of vehicle on those roads? I know the intent of your post, so I'm
not trying to stir up dirt here (I share the same selfish dream) but thought it posed a curious question. |
No, not at all... Operating motor vehicles (4WD or buggy) is how we adventure loving people enjoy Baja... Bad dirt roads makes Baja available for
ANYONE to enjoy, provided they show some effort to get there by having a 4X4 or other off road vehicle... it will be MORE appreciated and more
enjoyed!
You see, God gave us Baja to enjoy provided we show some effort to get there... The bad roads make us worthy of Baja.
Good roads (the work of the devil) allow everyone to get there... the good, the bad, and the ugly!
With good roads, and less effort or investment to get to the beautiful places... they are not appreciated the same way or as much as it was before.
People who don't appeciate a place are more likely to destroy it or tarnish it... grafitti, sea walls, private property signs, resort hotels, trash,
etc. You see, the devil's work! |
and then there is "walking" so one can get away from the 4wd crowd that is spoiling the wilderness 
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
Mr. Goat------
If we followed your logic to it's logical conclusion then we would have "areas" totally shut off to man's intrusion, and NOBODY would EVER enjoy
it!!!! If NOBODY ever enjoyed it, would it really exist?????
|
|
|
toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
|
|
Now you guys are getting Zen like, as in:
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to witness it, did it really happen?....Kinda like the sound of one hand clapping.  
|
|
|
capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sling time!
|
|
yeah - my comment's mis construed.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
toneArt----------you are mis-interpreting what Mike said, I think------he only pointed out that it is illegal to fly over the San Ignacio Lagoon, and
probably the pilot knew that------he never said that YOU wanted to violate the Lagoon, or that the pilot did either.
But Mike can explain himself a lot better than I can, I am sure. |
Thx Barry -
There was no connected reference in my text to the act of Toneart's pilot - only a general statement that "that act" if perpetrated by anyone is
illegal.
of course it was clear to me in his statement that the guy didn't buzz the lagoon's protected areas.
Now i have circled low at non breeding areas that do not have restrictions to view whales from a legal height of 500 ft.
it's amazing with a big pod.
biggest one we saw was outside of San carlos around mag bay, plus others (not greys) at concepcion.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 18100
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Mr. Goat------
If we followed your logic to it's logical conclusion then we would have "areas" totally shut off to man's intrusion, and NOBODY would EVER enjoy
it!!!! If NOBODY ever enjoyed it, would it really exist?????
|
sounds like a good conclusion. wilderness has value, and nothing is stopping people from hiking to access wilderness. the ADA does not guarentee the
right to drive anywhere one wants. preservation of the little amount of remaining wilderness is more important as development gets more dense.
|
|
|
wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3814
Registered: 2-9-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
safarigirl - you do what you have to. And there are many of us who tune into this forum who will support you. Ignore those clowns who may diminish
your purpose.
mtgoat - Amen.
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by wilderone
safarigirl - you do what you have to. And there are many of us who tune into this forum who will support you. Ignore those clowns who may diminish
your purpose.
mtgoat - Amen. |
safarigirl, I also respect your desire to save San Ignacio Lagoon and never thought it needed detailed explanation---go for it.
I still wonder if they have started the paving of the road---I hope not.
Diane
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
Mt. Goat--------
We HAVE wilderness areas-----lots of them!!! Look at any BLM, USFS or NPS land status map of the western states and you can see what I mean.
I just got back from a 4,500 mile jaunt around the west, and I can tell you that there is a lot of wild lands out there, and much of it is not under
wilderness designation (yet, thank God). We spent many days in our 4x4 camper in wild non-wilderness areas camping out and we saw very few, or no
people. Locking up MORE lands in wilderness designation is an over-reaction, in my opinion. This is/was a good idea originally, but we are now going
way too far (as usually happens).
There is, generally speaking, way more trees and wild animals now in North America than ever before, as far as can be determined. I admit that the
"range" needs improvement, and less grazing, but generally speaking things are in pretty good shape, botony wise. Wet lands are becoming rare too,
but we are working on that, tho maybe too late.
The "lock it up" crowd has prevailed------ now it is time for some balance, it seems to me. I am not handicapped, but at 70 it is difficult if not
impossible for me to walk into "wilderness" areas as the distances are just too far. Therefore wilderness areas only exist in my immagination, and
that is not good enough for me.
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Mt. Goat--------
We HAVE wilderness areas-----lots of them!!! Look at any BLM, USFS or NPS land status map of the western states and you can see what I mean.
I just got back from a 4,500 mile jaunt around the west, and I can tell you that there is a lot of wild lands out there, and much of it is not under
wilderness designation (yet, thank God). We spent many days in our 4x4 camper in wild non-wilderness areas camping out and we saw very few, or no
people. Locking up MORE lands in wilderness designation is an over-reaction, in my opinion. This is/was a good idea originally, but we are now going
way too far (as usually happens).
There is, generally speaking, way more trees and wild animals now in North America than ever before, as far as can be determined. I admit that the
"range" needs improvement, and less grazing, but generally speaking things are in pretty good shape, botony wise. Wet lands are becoming rare too,
but we are working on that, tho maybe too late.
The "lock it up" crowd has prevailed------ now it is time for some balance, it seems to me. I am not handicapped, but at 70 it is difficult if not
impossible for me to walk into "wilderness" areas as the distances are just too far. Therefore wilderness areas only exist in my immagination, and
that is not good enough for me. |
Sounds like you found lots of places to go to be alone---good. So why would you need any more wilderness areas opened up? We are not as able to hike
into the true wilderness areas as in the past, but we will always support the protective designation of wilderness----as you said, enough other places
to go. Without the preservation of the wilderness, we would have places like Disneyland in the Kings Canyon area of California---does anyone remember
that effort?
Oh, there are lots more places to go to be alone on BLM land, but often ranchers fence it off pretending that they own it. So back to Baja.
Diane and John
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
What do want to protect the lagoon from? |
Here was my entire question to her... Was that so hard that she had to avoid it and cause so much cross discussion?
Come on folks, if you want to protect something, you should be able to know what it needs protecting from. Just the facts... please!
|
If you have to ask and have details, IMHO, you don't understand.
Diane
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
Diane and John--------
Wow, this is frustrating!!! I know how Capt. Mike and David K feel now-------------------read my post again-------------nowhere do I advocate the
"removal" of the wilderness designation (tho it would be appropriate in some cases)-----------------what I am saying is that I question the need for
MORE wilderness areas.
Barry
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane and John--------
Wow, this is frustrating!!! I know how Capt. Mike and David K feel now-------------------read my post again-------------nowhere do I advocate the
"removal" of the wilderness designation (tho it would be appropriate in some cases)-----------------what I am saying is that I question the need for
MORE wilderness areas.
Barry |
We also support MORE wilderness areas---so no, we did not misunderstand.
John and Diane
|
|
|
Barry A.
Select Nomad
Posts: 10007
Registered: 11-30-2003
Location: Redding, Northern CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: optimistic
|
|
Diane-------
It seems to me that your reply to David K. outlines the "problem" exquisitely.
You imply that we all should just have a knee-jerk reaction to any environmental issue of automatically supporting it----------this IS at least part
of the problem. Not all issues that appear environmentally related, ARE. And many times actions are not really necessary. Each has to stand on it's
own merits, and the only way to determine that is to ask questions, it seems to me.
Barry
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane-------
It seems to me that your reply to David K. outlines the "problem" exquisitely.
You imply that we all should just have a knee-jerk reaction to any environmental issue of automatically supporting it----------this IS at least part
of the problem. Not all issues that appear environmentally related, ARE. And many times actions are not really necessary. Each has to stand on it's
own merits, and the only way to determine that is to ask questions, it seems to me.
Barry |
Such assumptions and the expected response --- not worth responding to---opps, I am responding----logging off now.
Diane
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
