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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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I was away for a few days. To answer the question, I work in real estate in the States and in Northern Baja, but do not work for Loreto Bay. I did at
one time in Southern California and I own a home with some partners in LB, but am now not affiliated in any way. As I said before I am definitely NOT
an apologist for them! I just see many inaccuracies of fact (misinformation) or opinions I disagree with (poster's right) upon which I comment.
Whether sales pitch or not, 1% of all revenue is going to a Foundation specifically for Loreto and the Sea of Cortes. The foundation is independently
administered by a reputable professor in California. That is a huge sum of money that was NOT required by any agreement with FONATUR. $800,000 toward
a hospital in town is definitely a positive. Loreto Bay is building their own clinic onsite (I believe it is completed), and use of the hospital will
be minimal until far in the future if at all. The Governor of Baja Sur decided a hospital was the top priority for the area and basically told LB that
their Foundation would be more than happy to contribute to it.
Affordable housing has been addressed numerous times. Guess what? Workers don't want to move to Loreto full time with their families! Aunts, uncles,
cousins and extended family are in other areas 'back home' and the idea has not caught on. Houses were to be built much like in the US under the FMHA
programs in rural America, where a percentage of income is calculated. Land was optioned and than not purchased as there were not enough who wanted to
participate. LB had an affordable housing director who worked for Habitat for Humanity on a high level. You can't force people to uproot and LB found
that out. Their sales pitch would sound much better if the affordable housing was built, so it isn't them that is the problem in this instance.
Loreto's street woes aren't LBs fault.
Lastly, the project is a heck of a lot more sustainable than anything else I see in Mexico, or (most of the time) in the U.S. Open space is maximized
rather than destroyed in many phases of development.
LB's negative impact on Loreto or the site of Nopolo are excellent points of discussion. As far as I know, LB has built the village so far according
to the plans submitted to FONATUR. It was FONATUR who said that there was enough water to support 200,000 people and LB who decided it best not to
count on that by providing more potable water through a Desal Plant. FONATUR is responsible for expanding the sewer to LB as part of their agreement
as well.
Once again, these are the facts as I understand them. My opinion is different than many others on the board, but I am merely trying to supply facts
when I perceive inaccuracies. I'll be more careful in the future to separate fact (as I understand them) and my opinion.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Kid, I happen to know Nomads offer to each other a helluva lot more than mere words. I have watched them share mountains of good will in the form of
support, hardgoods and soft while doing a lot of well aimed charity work in Mexico. Be careful how you go about measuring the value of the exchange
of knowledge, ideas, good will.
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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Not judging your goodwill at all! This is obviously a community of people who enjoy Baja and each other. It's just that LB has its good points and
bad. If LB is half and half (definitely open to opinion), than let's say that for every 10 things that are good that there are 10 things bad. IMHO
what I have seen on the board is that the ratio is more like 1 thing good and 20 things bad, even when some of those 20 are just inaccurate. I am only
trying to share info that I know first or at worst secondhand from being around the company.
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gnukid
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4411
Registered: 7-2-2006
Member Is Offline
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What I was referring to in noting the exchange of words was in reference to the implication that we shouldn't be discussing things we can have little
direct affect on, as has been implied by various posters. On the contrary, our words are of tremendous value both for new and old transients and
residents. And our words shall have impact in the course of time to the degree that as a community we adopt beliefs and act accordingly.
I appreciate the exchange tremendously and in no way would disparage the opportunity.
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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cajhawk,
Finally, someone on the other side of the fence that has something rational to say.
"Loreto's street woes aren't LBs fault." I disagree with you because it was the deal LB cut with FONATUR that got the development of Loreto as a
tourist destination started again. It flopped big time before, one of the few FONATUR failures.
And isn't the city of Loreto responsible for handling the Loreto Bay sewage? Building hospitals before building sewers is a bit bass ackwards. But it
does ensure a very profitable hospital business.
What about the scarcity of water?
Also, what do you think about a starting price of $400,000 for a LB unit?
Is trusting FONATUR to live up to their part of the deal to make this whole thing work, which I think has a very slim chance, or perhaps a fat chance,
a wise idea?
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: chiropractic
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I just want to stir the pot and play devil's advocate: Maybe the mess with the streets in Loreto is a calculated gamble that many businesses WILL go
bankrupt; then these businesses can be bought up cheaply by the same developers and investors in Loreto Bay. It makes sense to me: get rid of the old
wood and the people that complain and fringe establishments that are not derectly enriching LB, make them go belly up, buy them up at liquidation
prices, and convert them to real businesses for the benefit of those that can afford box-condos for 400K+. I'm sure they are even plotting how to
evict all those poor Loretanos squatting on valuable ancestral property in the area. Why not? What good are these natives and marginal businesses to
the invading horde of rich gringos?
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
Member Is Offline
Mood: undecided
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amir Sounds reasonable enough. Can the " powers that be" be that devious? Spooky. 
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3401
Registered: 3-24-2007
Location: The Valley of the Moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Peacefull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by amir
I just want to stir the pot and play devil's advocate: Maybe the mess with the streets in Loreto is a calculated gamble that many businesses WILL go
bankrupt; then these businesses can be bought up cheaply by the same developers and investors in Loreto Bay. It makes sense to me: get rid of the old
wood and the people that complain and fringe establishments that are not derectly enriching LB, make them go belly up, buy them up at liquidation
prices, and convert them to real businesses for the benefit of those that can afford box-condos for 400K+. I'm sure they are even plotting how to
evict all those poor Loretanos squatting on valuable ancestral property in the area. Why not? What good are these natives and marginal businesses to
the invading horde of rich gringos? |
Amir,
Although it sounds interesting..... I think that the level
of cooperation amongst the conspiritors could not be achieved because of the personel greed and short sitedness of those involved.... Just my take
on it.
CaboRon
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oldhippie
Banned
Posts: 742
Registered: 6-25-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: muted
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Maybe, but it will make selling units tough.
I hope FONATUR is squeezing money out of Butterfield. He's got a lot to lose. Mess it up, make him fix it, or else he'll have to give potential buyers
nose plugs and rubber boots for their trip to town to buy authentic Mexican snorkels.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by cajhawk
....
Whether sales pitch or not, 1% of all revenue is going to a Foundation specifically for Loreto and the Sea of Cortes.
Affordable housing has been addressed numerous times. Guess what? Workers don't want to move to Loreto full time with their families! Aunts, uncles,
cousins and extended family are in other areas 'back home' and the idea has not caught on. Houses were to be built much like in the US under the FMHA
programs in rural America, where a percentage of income is calculated. Land was optioned and than not purchased as there were not enough who wanted to
participate. LB had an affordable housing director who worked for Habitat for Humanity on a high level. You can't force people to uproot and LB found
that out. Their sales pitch would sound much better if the affordable housing was built, so it isn't them that is the problem in this instance.
....
....
Lastly, the project is a heck of a lot more sustainable than anything else I see in Mexico, or (most of the time) in the U.S. Open space is maximized
rather than destroyed in many phases of development.
LB's negative impact on Loreto or the site of Nopolo are excellent points of discussion. As far as I know, LB has built the village so far according
to the plans submitted to FONATUR. It was FONATUR who said that there was enough water to support 200,000 people and LB who decided it best not to
count on that by providing more potable water through a Desal Plant. FONATUR is responsible for expanding the sewer to LB as part of their agreement
as well.
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Again...I suggest you look at the annual reports for the Loreto Bay Foundation to decide whether or not there is any great benefit to the people of
Loreto...or any great amount of money being spent. The hospital is a great selling point even if there is a clinic in LB, because a clinic cannot
handle the same problems as a hospital. I still don't know whether the hospital will be a for fee hospital, whether it will accept Mexican insurance,
whether it will cover those things that the social security hospital can't and whether or not it will take those patients. Do you know know to what
extent it will help the people of Loreto?
When I suggested affordable housing units, I was not talking about imported workers. I was thinking Loreto families. And, I was thinking within the
LB project, not on some land outside of the project.
Because something is more sustainable than anything you have seen being built in Mexico, doesn't actually make it more sustainable.
Loreto Bay hasn't built a desal plant to provide more potable water.
Just because Fonatur has agreed to extend the sewer and allow for water use doesn't mean that there is sufficient water, and it doesn't mean that the
sewer treatment is adequate. And, just because plans are the same as those submitted to Fonatur doesn't make it sustainable, or create less impact
on the environment or the town.
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edinnopolo
Nomad
Posts: 138
Registered: 5-1-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: laid back
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Everybody remember the eco-friendly adobe block
And then the concrete-foam like slabs
Well, now we have something like a diminutive start of an empire state building 
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comitan
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4177
Registered: 3-27-2004
Location: La Paz
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow
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Well at least it looks Hurricane proof.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by elizabeth
Again...I suggest you look at the annual reports for the Loreto Bay Foundation to decide whether or not there is any great benefit to the people of
Loreto...or any great amount of money being spent. The hospital is a great selling point even if there is a clinic in LB, because a clinic cannot
handle the same problems as a hospital. I still don't know whether the hospital will be a for fee hospital, whether it will accept Mexican insurance,
whether it will cover those things that the social security hospital can't and whether or not it will take those patients. Do you know know to what
extent it will help the people of Loreto?
When I suggested affordable housing units, I was not talking about imported workers. I was thinking Loreto families. And, I was thinking within the
LB project, not on some land outside of the project.
Because something is more sustainable than anything you have seen being built in Mexico, doesn't actually make it more sustainable.
Loreto Bay hasn't built a desal plant to provide more potable water.
Just because Fonatur has agreed to extend the sewer and allow for water use doesn't mean that there is sufficient water, and it doesn't mean that the
sewer treatment is adequate. And, just because plans are the same as those submitted to Fonatur doesn't make it sustainable, or create less impact
on the environment or the town. |
Point taken. When the desal plant goes online you can check that off, as I believe it will be sometime within the next 12 months.
I'm not a water expert, but 3 of the 12 wells are currently being used. Estimates from outside sources are that Loreto wasted about half of its water
between the source and piping it into town. If LB ends up using only desal water at some point, than the water issue is moot as well. FONATUR is and
has been responsible for the development of Nopolo from its inception and budgeted funds to expand when needed. Loreto is not paying for any
additional sewage impact; it is being paid for by FONATUR solely.
It would be nice if it were never developed. FONATUR did and someone was going to come in at some point. I think that if LB were to go bellyup and
another developer came in, you would have more issues with the new developer. I give Loreto Bay a C+ so far, mostly due to lengthy construction and
lack of amenities being completed. I think that they have a vested interest in Loreto being nice and have been a good neighbor (not great) so far.
As I said before, most people hate seeing change, particularly residential development in a pretty setting. FONATURs decision to develop Loreto set
the ball in motion. The amazing thing to me is that someone didn't build there sooner with all of that infrastructure in place.
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by edinnopolo
Everybody remember the eco-friendly adobe block
And then the concrete-foam like slabs
Well, now we have something like a diminutive start of an empire state building |
Those are the Posada Buildings. They are 3 story condominium buildings with commercial center (market) on the first floor. They are still using adobe
on single family homes.
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capt. mike
Elite Nomad
Posts: 8085
Registered: 11-26-2002
Location: Bat Cave
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sling time!
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This is all sooooo rich. But fun though. Take a powder people and don't be so serious....
so i am headed to Loreto thursday and me thinks i'll saunter down to LB before heading to Mulege for the night and see whazzup.
And Osprey, hey thanks for recognizing the charity work i and others do down there. And if you have any doubts about how the pax fuel contribution
works, go to the flying sams website where you can read the working rules for volunteering to take a plane ride south for a weekend. You can also see
the liability waiver all members must agree to. The pilots pay for their seat cost too. And we all have aircraft liability policies written to a
mexican insurance underwriter.
none of us is a "licensed charter" nor do we want to be. When i get calls for that i refer all to Kevin Warren at BajaAirventures.
and.......99% of my riders are Sams, close personal friends and relatives - we SPLIT the costs per FAA rules.
formerly Ordained in Rev. Ewing\'s Church by Mail - busted on tax fraud.......
Now joined L. Ron Hoover\'s church of Appliantology
\"Remember there is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over....\"
www.facebook.com/michael.l.goering |
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tehag
Super Nomad
Posts: 1248
Registered: 1-8-2005
Member Is Offline
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Loreto
The sewer repairs in Loreto are the result of the bloody system being a total botch job from the getgo. I was there when they dug it, by hand mostly,
left it open at every manhole for over a year while locals used the openings for a shortcut to the town dump, moved hundreds of families into
INFONAVIT before there was a pump at the gravity-fed staging sump, completely lost track of the lines on Davis Street, allowed many users to hookup
to lines that had been bypassed which created the great underground black-water river that Davis Street actually fell into at one point, and finally,
stood by for years and allowed 85% of the water pumped from San Jaun Londó into the Loreto water system to disappear without ever reaching the
processing plant. Loreto Bay had nothing whatever to do with any of that. I'm not one of theirs either, but let's get real here; if a meteorite lands
in central Greenland, it's not necessarily Loreto Bay's fault.
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elizabeth
Senior Nomad
Posts: 742
Registered: 7-30-2004
Location: Loreto, BCS
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tehag
if a meteorite lands in central Greenland, it's not necessarily Loreto Bay's fault. |
How can you be sure? 
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backninedan
Senior Nomad
Posts: 865
Registered: 3-8-2003
Location: Loreto
Member Is Offline
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I hear LB is planning an authentic Greenland village.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
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Mike, take your own "powder", chill. Isn't that your message. None of this is serious or real is it. Don't mean a thang at Screaming Airlines! You
must be the only one on this board who can take a joke cause you know it's all just a gas, ain't it. I don't think we'll ever see your kisser on a
Sam's hero poster podna.
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cajhawk
Junior Nomad
Posts: 64
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Offline
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I've already posted on the "Greenland Nomad" bulletin board. Apparently the meteorite is melting a glacier! LB apparently couldn't get FONATUR to make
good on their promise for more wells, so they took matters into their own hands for a more reliable water supply!
 
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