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DENNIS
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
Maybe the US government should do something to prevent the 234 murders, 550 forcible rapes, 4,363 robberies, and 6,047 aggravated assaults that
occurred in 2006 in Phoenix Arizona, a city of about 1.5 million, if they have all this power to prevent crime.
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That's right. They should. Have you asked them what their problem is?
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Iflyfish
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We love Baja and that is why this issue is so dear to us. The US crime statistics posted on this thread point to the prevelance of these problems in
the USofA and the statistics are over whelming!
I have been following Gnukids thread on the crime in his neighborhood and it demonstrates very clearly part of the problem, the convoluted legal and
criminal justice system of Mexico. Another part of this issue is the context of the USofA treatment of Mexican workers and their families. Poverty
also has a significant role to play in this issue. USofA aggressive foreign policy has also diminished regard for Americans around the world and the
USofA does no longer pursue those who harm Americans in foreign counties. There was a day when the USofA did go after those who harmed Americans in
foreign nations, no longer so. These changes in policy makes travel for Americans more risky.
I have traveled for forty years, all over Mexico, and I have never heard so much fear on the part of American's over travel to Mexico. I understand
that tourism is down and stories like this have a very real impact on the Mexican economy. There also is the reality that Jesse is pointing to, that
is there is a limited amount of resources that the Federal Government has to deal with issues. The current choice is to allocate huge resources on the
"War on Drug Cartells".
It is not likely that incidents like this will have any affect on current government policy on either side of the border, it will however affect
tourism and already has.
Iflyfish
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JESSE
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7 years ago or so i posted on the late amigos board, that we where heading into what Baja norte is living today. When you have thousands of foreigners
grabbing land left and right and building half million dollar houses right smack in the middle of dirt poor towns, wich creates a demand for labor
that has to come from the main land because the locals are not used to working up to the standars of a modern crazy society. Then what you have is a
combination os a lot of money, and a lot of very poor and desperate people from the mainland who are willing to do anything for a quick buck.
Its funny but we are just getting what we deserve, we are greedy, we want things done fast and cheap, we do not tolerate local customs, we think
because we bring money locals have to appreciate us, and then after we create a huge demand for poor uneducated, agressive, and violent people from
central Mexico, we now want it all to stop. LOL!!! would you like fries with that sir?
Get real, you want to know what the real truth is? look at Cabo, thats the perfect example of whats going on in all of Baja. You have thousands of
foreigners moving in, thousands of properties under construction, people who want things done like "back home" and do not tolerate "lazy locals", so
companies start bringing people from Mexico City, Oaxaca, Guerrero, to do things faster, cheaper, and "better". Those people start to make a little
money and call back home and tell all family and friends that crazy americans may very well here so they should start thinking about coming up here.
In time, the criminal element notices the good life here and starts moving up here as well, because its better to rob an american couple than a
peasant in the mountains of Michoacan.
Next time we start complaining about the lazy carpenter, the slow mechanic, or the slow phone company, we better think twice about what we are doing
by demanding cheaper, faster, and "better". Because it will surely come back to bite our asses in the future.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Economic pressure? for christ sake, this is reality, we buy more from the US than Italy, Spain, France and Germany combined |
So why can't the US leverage that need? Am I missing something? You make it sound like only the US is benefiting.
What about the economic benefits gained by the flood of Americans wanting to retire in baja? Those $300,000 homes that are selling like flapjacks.
Wouldn't it be in Mexico's interest in keeping that gravy train going?
How is it that the US can pressure Mexico into controlling the flow of drugs into our country but can't help to protect a homeowner to drive safely to
the house he purchased in baja?
Something's not right here.
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Economic pressure? for christ sake, this is reality, we buy more from the US than Italy, Spain, France and Germany combined |
So why can't the US leverage that need? Am I missing something? You make it sound like only the US is benefiting.
What about the economic benefits gained by the flood of Americans wanting to retire in baja? Those $300,000 homes that are selling like flapjacks.
Wouldn't it be in Mexico's interest in keeping that gravy train going?
How is it that the US can pressure Mexico into controlling the flow of drugs into our country but can't help to protect a homeowner to drive safely to
the house he purchased in baja?
Something's not right here. |
What makes you think the US pressures Mexico for controlling the flow of drugs? and what makes you think that just because a few politicians in Mexico
City think that this development is good, all people in Baja think the same?
I did not say the US is benefiting, all i am saying is that we are getting what we created, so we shouldnt cry about it and blame others for our
responsability.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
What makes you think the US pressures Mexico for controlling the flow of drugs?
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a. The myriad of inspection points I drive through along the highway.
b. The speeches I watched former presidente Vincente Fox give stating that he would help us with the 'war on drugs' in exchange for greater leniency
on our illegal aliens
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
and what makes you think that just because a few politicians in Mexico City think that this development is good, all people in Baja think the same?
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Because a wealthier Mexico benefits all of Mexico. I think that the people of Baja are very much for this - just not on their land. They would prefer
that it happened elsewhere. I, for example, would love to have our steel industry flourish back east but I wouldn't want to live in those steel mill
towns near Pittsburg.
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
all i am saying is that we are getting what we created, so we shouldnt cry about it and blame others for our responsability. |
I actually wrote my earlier response as you were writing this. I agree with this 100%. My Mexican coworkers here (they commute from Tijuana) say the
same thing. The development is indirectly responsible for the crime. But I don't see how this attitude is helpful. Those criminals are ultimately
responsible for their actions. There is no way to rationalize that.
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DENNIS
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So....What we're saying here is that crime is a by-product of development. Is that a universal fact? Maybe so. I don't know.
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Pescador
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Having worked in the Adolescent Criminal Justice system most of my adult life , the ideas of economic sanction and all that is "Pie in the sky" kind
of thinking and the only true deterrent to criminal behavior is consistent and uniform consequences for unacceptable behavior. Because of the
disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since chances were
that they would not get caught anyway. I do see signs of that slowly changing and enforcement is starting to happen on a more consistent basis but
the drug cartel mentality has shown clearly that with money and power, you can pretty much get by with what you want. That message then gets very
clear with the small time street punk and pretty soon he starts to exhibit the same behavior. So basically I am more concerned with he anarchy
running rampant in the more populated areas and it will only be when there is enough pressure to change the system starting at the top and working
down will we see any appreciable change. In fact if I had to guess, I think it will only get worse before we see a real turn in direction
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comitan
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With 70,000 people crossing the border every day, The amount of crime is minimal, just take a city of 70,000 and see how much crime in that city in
the US. I don't think the sky is falling unless your on the receiving end of a crime, but it would be no different than in the US or Baja.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Skipjack Joe
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Using stats to suggest that the situation is the same on both sides of the border is no longer reassuring to me. I saw it that way not too long ago.
But no more. Things have definitely taken a nosedive.
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MrBillM
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Numero Uno en El Norte
Detroit is, once again, the most dangerous place in the USA, but SO WHAT ? Nobody wants to go there.
Comparing the two would be Apples and Oranges.
Besides, in the U.S., I can pack heat whenever I go somewhere questionable.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Having worked in the Adolescent Criminal Justice system most of my adult life , the ideas of economic sanction and all that is "Pie in the sky" kind
of thinking and the only true deterrent to criminal behavior is consistent and uniform consequences for unacceptable behavior. Because of the
disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since chances were
that they would not get caught anyway. I do see signs of that slowly changing and enforcement is starting to happen on a more consistent basis but
the drug cartel mentality has shown clearly that with money and power, you can pretty much get by with what you want. That message then gets very
clear with the small time street punk and pretty soon he starts to exhibit the same behavior. So basically I am more concerned with he anarchy
running rampant in the more populated areas and it will only be when there is enough pressure to change the system starting at the top and working
down will we see any appreciable change. In fact if I had to guess, I think it will only get worse before we see a real turn in direction
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Pescador----
I agree with all you say here, and it is wise-------but I believe that the "change" you speak of must start at the BOTTOM, and work it's way
up-------not the other way around.
Politicians basically respond to their constituents (despite what many think)----------like Dennis (and others) say, if the people demand it, and
really mean it by the way they vote and act, then, and only then, will the "top" initiate change.
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Minnow
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It is funny people find comfort in comparing, camping on a semi remote surf spot in Baja and going for Soul Food in South Central LA, when explaining
that crime happens everywhere.
Wake up. Crime in Mexico has gone off the charts. The odds of being robbed anywhere in Baja are probably similar to those of being robbed in South
Central LA.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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comitan
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Ok the crime in the US that the police and government can't stop is not relevant to whats happening in Mexico. So you think that the Mexican
government,Police are more capable than the US and can stop what is going on. I'm sure that if someone on this forum can tell the Police what to do
to stop this crime I'm sure they would if its within their realm, and budget.
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Hook
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I pretty much agree with Pescador. The reason violent crime has continued to drop in America is due to the significant increases in penalties for
crimes we have instituted in the US over the last 10 years. That, and the pretty steady economy we've had.
As to where the change will come from in Mexico, only when Mexico trains and pays its law enforcement and legal system a wage that will make them
think twice about turning to the Dark Side, will it change. The punishments for crimes in Mexico is plenty severe; the problem is that there is much
incentive for paying your way out of the crime to avoid the punishment. And at every level.
EVERYTHING is done for economic reasons. People make choices for economic reasons. Heck, people get into crime for economic reasons. Those that cant
make a living and dont cross the border, often choose crime.
Mexico needs to change the economics of law enforcement (and the economics of the country as a whole) for it ever to be effective. So, in that sense,
I agree with Jesse.
But there is something wrong when all the money we drop down there in tourism and development simply leads to more crime, rather than less. That money
should be incentive for people to work instead of committing crimes.
The joker in the equation is drugs, IMO. People getting tweaked make bad decisons and begin to live partially or wholly off the black market economy
of the distribution, transportation and use of these vile drugs. Violent crime is part and parcel to this.
How to stop that is a sticky wicket...........
[Edited on 11-19-2007 by Hook]
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by comitan
Ok the crime in the US that the police and government can't stop is not relevant to whats happening in Mexico. So you think that the Mexican
government,Police are more capable than the US and can stop what is going on. I'm sure that if someone on this forum can tell the Police what to do
to stop this crime I'm sure they would if its within their realm, and budget. |
IMHO------Once again I think you have it backwards---------the "police and government" cannot "stop crime" without the support and cooperation of the
people-------it starts at the bottom-------people (a big majority) with the WILL to say enought is enough, and begin to help the police and government
in any way they can. Without that, stopping/impacting crime will never happen, IMO.
WE (the majority of us) have got to take on the responsibility to do our part, and you ALL know what that is--------report crimes, and help the police
in anyway we can, and vote in "law and order" politicians.
(and this includes monitoring what the police do, and hold THEM accountable, also)
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
Because of the disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since
chances were that they would not get caught anyway.
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If the above is true then why wasn't crime such an issue in the past? Why has crime increased while the legal system has stayed the same? To my way of
thinking it's because the temptation has gone up.
Pescador's analysis is one that's very common of conservatives. The idea is to get tough on crime to stop it. And if there is a problem you're not
tough enough. Jesse's outlook and mine see it as an environment issue.
Here's an analogy:
It's not surprising that if you wave a piece of fresh red meat in front of a dog he will snatch at it.
A conservative will try to solve the problem by training the dog.
A liberal will do it by removing the meat.
Unfortunately we can't remove the meat in baja and go back to the way it used to be. So law enforcement needs to get it's act together. And that's why
these threads tend to be more attractive to conservatives.
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MrBillM
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Playing the ODDS !
Having been born over 62 years ago in South L.A. (Watts area), living there the vast majority of my life until 1970 and frequently visiting family and
friends in the area through the 90s, I would suggest that ANYONE who proposes as nearly equal the odds of being assaulted on a remote Baja beach and
having the same happen on the streets of South L.A. doesn't have a clue on the subject.
I invite anyone interested to test that propostition sometime and report back on the results.
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Having been born over 62 years ago in South L.A. (Watts area), living there the vast majority of my life until 1970 and frequently visiting family and
friends in the area through the 90s, I would suggest that ANYONE who proposes as nearly equal the odds of being assaulted on a remote Baja beach and
having the same happen on the streets of South L.A. doesn't have a clue on the subject.
I invite anyone interested to test that propostition sometime and report back on the results. |
--------and your conclusion is????????
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Hook
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That's not very relevant, Bill.
What would be interesting is to know the percentage of the incidence of violent crime on a specific stretch of Baja beach in relation to the overall
number of gringo visitors to that stretch.
It's probably not going to be as high as South Central but it would shed more light on your chances of being a victim in a certain area.
Many have talked about how the northern Baja areas of Camalu, Cuatro Casas, etc., as being continuing "hot" spots for crime. The number of incidents
is probably rather low.........but so is the number of visitors, compared to other areas. That doesnt necessarily make your chances all that great.
These hotspots that never go away is one of the most frustrating parts of the whole law enforcement scene in Mexico. A simple sting operation would be
SO effective. But there are clearly economic disincentives for the police to do this.
Whether gnukid's tale is truth or fiction, I believe it is a true portrayal of the legal system in Mexico in many areas.
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