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Dave
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Get real
| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
Mexico came so close - at a time before the horrors of now - to legalizing small amounts of drugs for personal use, so as to focus all efforts on the
cartels... and the U.S. persuaded Fox to not sign the bill. Sad. It could have been the end of much of what is driving the hell being experienced
today.
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You honestly think the reason Mexico can't focus attention on the cartels is because they spend so much time chasing after the small timers?
Puuuleeze. 
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BajaBad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
You honestly think the reason Mexico can't focus attention on the cartels is because they spend so much time chasing after the small timers?
Puuuleeze. |
Good call - but, yes... I do think that if legalization legislation had gone through, and we had Obrador (Mexico almost Did start the process of
'taking back its country'... IMHO) in office, much of this would not be happening.
Not important now - but it is crucial for reality to sink in, if possible, that these 'conservative' measures promoted by Calderon have not worked,
and NO to Plan Mexico. NO money to corrupt Mexican police & government officials.
They steal enough from us as it is. 
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaBad
Not important now - but it is crucial for reality to sink in, if possible, that these 'conservative' measures promoted by Calderon have not worked,
and NO to Plan Mexico. NO money to corrupt Mexican police & government officials.
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Calderon is in WAY over his head. Mexico is a failed state. There is now NO respect for ANY institution save the military (barely). Eventually, it's
gonna cost the U.S. bigtime.
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CaboRon
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As far as I can see from where this thread is going, we're back to square one. The idea of legalizing recreational drugs but staying the course on
hard drugs will not make any difference to the violence experienced in baja these days ( the subject of this thread). American gangland violence
stopped with the repeal of prohibition because ALL booze was legalized, not just that which contained less than 80% alcohol. |
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JESSE
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Next two years will be difficult, after that, things will improve and get a lot better. Mexico is nowhere near to becoming a failed state.
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Santiago
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I once read an artical in the WSJ that I think was tounge-in-cheek: the writer 'proved' that the US would save a ton of $ if we just gave away all
optiates and coca derivatives to anyone who wanted it. He claimed a deal could be struck between the pharmecutical/tobacco companies that would
'donate' the hard stuff in exchange for producing and selling pot.
He had professionals estimating addiction rates (about the same as current, if I recall), cost of rehab, savings on the war on drugs etc.
Shock value for starting disussions/thinking was high.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
I once read an artical in the WSJ that I think was tounge-in-cheek: the writer 'proved' that the US would save a ton of $ if we just gave away all
optiates and coca derivatives to anyone who wanted it. He claimed a deal could be struck between the pharmecutical/tobacco companies that would
'donate' the hard stuff in exchange for producing and selling pot.
He had professionals estimating addiction rates (about the same as current, if I recall), cost of rehab, savings on the war on drugs etc.
Shock value for starting disussions/thinking was high. |
Why not? Most cities in the U.S. have a free, clean/new needle handout. It cuts down on spreading disease. Just go the extra step.
The solution is going to require thinking outside of the box.
Hey! Why not give the concession to one cartel and then back them up with the military, defending them against competitors? Get them to agree to a
bi-lateral "hands off" policy in exchange for price fixing and regulation. Dress em up in suits like all the "respectable" crooks in government and
corporations. That way the underground economy wouldn't collapse. 
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ELINVESTIG8R
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Legalization of drugs with never solve Mexico's problem. The below is the only thing that will
Commence a sweep across Mexico searching every home every rancho every building and under every rock arresting and/or killing the heads of the cartels
and their henchmen. Once each state has been cleaned out I will restore the constitution and leave behind a "Clean" Municipal, State and Federal
Police force to keep the ground my military has cleaned out.
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Santiago
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Next two years will be difficult, after that, things will improve and get a lot better. Mexico is nowhere near to becoming a failed state.
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I tend to agree with Jesse; I believe we are seeing birth pangs instead of death throes. Either one's messy.
There is a growing middle and profesional class that are starting to carve out pretty good lives. It's easy for outsiders to wonder why people
haven't reached their tipping point yet but eventually it will happen. The recent march by physicians in Tijuana is an example of what will grow as
frustration with the DF increases.
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flyfishinPam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
Next two years will be difficult, after that, things will improve and get a lot better. Mexico is nowhere near to becoming a failed state.
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I think the people of Ciudad Juarez would disagree with you.
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comitan
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JESSE
I hope so, but did you get away from it????????????????????
Strive For The Ideal, But Deal With What\'s Real.
Every day is a new day, better than the day before.(from some song)
Lord, Keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
“The sincere pursuit of truth requires you to entertain the possibility that everything you believe to be true may in fact be false”
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Dave
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Weak sisters
| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
The recent march by physicians in Tijuana is an example of what will grow as frustration with the DF increases. |
There was a march last week in TJ that attracted 2,500 people. Multiply that figure by 100 and I'll know the populace is getting serious.
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Pescador
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Because I have a background in treating Adolescent Juvenille Delinquents, I feel like I have been around this issue for a long time. I do know, for a
fact, that legislation has had no impact whatsoever on the usage or non-usage of drugs. As with alcohol, tobacco, or any other substance, there is a
percentage of people who will abuse and become addicted. So we are kidding ourselves if we settle the question of legalization soley on the basis of
addiction. Prohibition had very little effect on the use of alcohol and primarily stimulated the underworld in sales and distribution. Is that not
exactly what is going on right nows with the drug issue. Making drugs illegal has about the same effect on usage as speed limits do for most drivers.
Since you get caught infrequently, the allure of using outweighs the fear of getting caught. I do not use drugs nor would I use them if they were
legalized any more than I do tobacco, but it is very easy to see the parallel with prohibition.
Dave responds that the consumer will buy off of the street rather than pay exhorbitant taxes for legalized drugs, but I disagree since people pay
high prices to use convenience stores all the time. While I know that "white Lightning" is still available in the south, I am not very interested in
taking a trip to buy any when I can buy good scotch at my local store.
K-rico responds that most people that drink regularly do not become addicted and can control their consumption. This is inaccurate as the number of
alcoholics readily confirms. They are certainly addicted to alcohol and without some outside intervention, are unable to quit. But prohibition was
put into place partly due to addiction and it did not change, it just caused more conflict and disruption since an alcoholic would do whatever they
had to in order to obtain booze. (Does this parallel drugs)
Skipjack says as a parent he is scared to death of drugs. This is a real problem, but as a parent and a therapist, I was scared to death of
alcohol, tobacco, sexual addiction and drugs. The answer is that it is the same as any other addictive substance, you hope your kids do not get
hooked. You prepare them in the same way with good, solid information and support.
Further, Skipjack talks about the drug attitude in school and that is a good step, but I also know that just north of his house in San Fransisco, it
was reported this week that since the legalization of medical marijuana, that the pot shops now outnumber the Starbucks.
K-rico feels that legalizing leads to more addicts, and the scientific data does not support that theory. If you look at the percentages of users
compared to the percentages of addicts, they pretty much remain constant accross the spectrum of substances. With the exception of Meth, the drug
does not usually cause the addiction, the addiction is already there looking for an avenue of expression.
I do believe, however, that Krystal or Meth is a real problem in its street form. First of all it is easy to make and is cheap but is a very
addictive substance. I think it is popular due to the high received and the low price.
I have heard from several researchers that if it was manufactured in a purer form it would not have some of those characteristics but I do not know
that for a fact and I do not know that legalization of pot and coke would lead to a less use of Meth.
All this being said, it is fun to argue the idea back and forth, but I hold out little hope that lawmakers on either side of the border will have
enough vision or intelligence to actually address and tackle this issue unless the violence gets so bad that they are forced to approach the problem
with new and creative ideas.
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Skipjack Joe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
I was scared to death of .... sexual addiction ....
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Were you able to overcome that?
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CaboRon
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Pescador,
Thank you for your well thought out words ...
It is nice to hear from a professional on this matter ....
Elvis, I am sorry , but wars only lead to more violence, not to solutions.
The solution can be found in education of the children, and will not happen overnight.
CaboRon
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k-rico
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Pescador said:
"K-rico responds that most people that drink regularly do not become addicted and can control their consumption. This is inaccurate as the number of
alcoholics readily confirms."
62% dring beverage alcohol.
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFa...
5.42% have alcohol dependence:
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Resources/DatabaseResources/QuickFa...
Pescador said:
"K-rico feels that legalizing leads to more addicts, and the scientific data does not support that theory."
"Other countries have also had this experience. The Netherlands has had its own troubles with increased use of cannabis products. From 1984 to 1996,
the Dutch liberalized the use of cannabis. Surveys reveal that lifetime prevalence of cannabis in Holland increased consistently and sharply. For the
age group 18-20, the increase is from 15 percent in 1984 to 44 percent in 1996."
See the following for many other examples of failed legalization.
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/06so.htm
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
Commence a sweep across Mexico searching every home every rancho every building and under every rock arresting and/or killing the heads of the cartels
and their henchmen. Once each state has been cleaned out I will restore the constitution and leave behind a "Clean" Municipal, State and Federal
Police force to keep the ground my military has cleaned out.
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you think the solution to crime is revoking civil rights and indisciminate cracking peoples heads? you sound like a donut eater or a Hitler wanna-be.
thank god for groups like the ACLU. what is the Mexican equivalent for ACLU?
[Edited on 11-21-2008 by mtgoat666]
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Sharksbaja
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K-rico, you just gotta stop all that online referencing. We all can custom tailor our sources to fit the need. There are a thousand articles in ALL
camps.
You can't believe half of what you read. Take it from people on the street. Who would know better, some gov't agency?
Fisherman, bless your take.
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Natalie Ann
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pescador
I was scared to death of .... sexual addiction ....
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Were you able to overcome that? |
nena
Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
.....Oscar Wilde
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Skipjack Joe
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Wow. These are very compelling statistics and pretty much what I feared. However, statistics can be manipulated. These are presented by DEA, an
organization whose very existence depends upon the pursuit of drug offenders. Are these stats supported by more independent groups?
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